QQ in huge multiway pot, ace flops [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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11-22-2005, 01:37 PM

UTG+2 is a tight and aggressive player and certainly knows what he is doing.

Cryptologic 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, 1 folds, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 3 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero...

What do I do? There are 5 players in this huge pot! Somebody must have an ace.....?

@bsolute_luck

11-22-2005, 01:41 PM

i would have folded to the flop raise. i don't think our hand is goot and we don't have a good draw to call with. with the spade draw out there, looks like we're down to 1 out and even in this big pot, it isn't big enough.

on the turn: check/fold.

TheKentock

11-22-2005, 01:41 PM

I would just c/c the flop, and probably c/f the turn. Against this many opponents, I just don't see your queens holding up UI.

BTW, excellent table selection, if you have 3 guys willing to coldcall 3 bets preflop. that's a juicy table.

davelin

11-22-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i would have folded to the flop raise. i don't think our hand is goot and we don't have a good draw to call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Set draw?

midwestkc

11-22-2005, 01:43 PM

I would check and if UTG+2 bets, cry like a baby while folding.

jaxUp

11-22-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just c/c the flop, and probably c/f the turn. Against this many opponents, I just don't see your queens holding up UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah

sean c

11-22-2005, 01:45 PM

I would have capped pre flop.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif nevermind i will read the OP next time. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

11-22-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+2 is a tight and aggressive player and certainly knows what he is doing.

Cryptologic 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, 1 folds, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 3 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero...

What do I do? There are 5 players in this huge pot! Somebody must have an ace.....?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do here. You're right, someone must have an ace, especially given that two poeple called two bets cold on the flop. On the turn you should probably check/fold, although if UTG + 2 bets and gets two calls, you may have implied odds to call and try to hit your set. Overall I would lead towards folding though.

I'm pretty sure you shouldn't lead out on the flop, but I can understand why you would do it in the middle of the hand.

I think the most important thing to do after hands like these is to remain confident that you did the right thing by capping pre-flop, and not let the hand get you down.

Baloosh

11-22-2005, 01:47 PM

Wouldn't a Tight-Agressive player who "knows what he's doing" raise the flop here with JJ or KK?

I think the TAG is the least of your worries in this hand -- those other callers are the ones who will play Ace-rag for any number of bets pre-flop. If you really want to fight for this pot, you could probably (maybe?) get the TAG to fold, but not the other 3, especially when they flop their A-rago. I'd check this flop and depending on the action, fold or call.

Since you bet the flop, you don't have odds to spike the non-spade Q (1 out). You do have odds to spike any Queen, but the Qs could be an expensive second-best hand.

..unless you river g00t and pair the board.

TomBrooks

11-22-2005, 03:00 PM

Check the flop into a field of five. If it comes back two, fold.

11-22-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop into a field of five. If it comes back two, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You are getting 20:1 if it's not two, so you can call for a set. You are behind on this flop, accept it, look at your options and move on.

@bsolute_luck

11-22-2005, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would have folded to the flop raise. i don't think our hand is goot and we don't have a good draw to call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Set draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

i put that in my post.

11-22-2005, 04:06 PM

[grunchin]

Not sure I agree with betting out on this flop with the under pair OOP against a TAG. A TAG's 3-betting range is AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, mebbee, just mebbe TT. You are behind on this flop with most of these, you can check/call if it's one bet back to you, because you have odds to hit your 2-outter, assuming you're not against AA.

based on the way you played it, it's either check/call or check/fold this turn. This is a huge pot, and there's an outside chance (18:1?) that villain is bluffing the ace, so you may have to get to SD. Nonetheless, if it's one bet back to you, you should have 18:1, enough implied odds to spike a Q. Again, let's hope villain doesn't have AA.

Actually, it appears that at least one of these folks may be drawing at the flush, so the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif is not clean. Let's go back and check/fold this flop and let the other villains see the showdown.

11-22-2005, 04:51 PM

*grunch*
I actually have no idea, why you are betting into this huge crowd of people on the flop.
The only explanation I could imagine is to let UTG+1 raise to give some protection. The Pot is so huge, that people still get 12.5:1 and more and can draw with virtually anything. I think this one is a classic example of not trying to protect on the flop.

Of course this leaves the question unanswered: what are you trying to protect? You have 3 people cold calling a 3Bet preflop!!! You are really drawing at 2 outs. The Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif is really drrty. Without another Q you are Toast. And then people could have outdrawn you already. You then have a few outs (about 6) to a full house, still. The pot is big enough for this. You can't protect it now, but you want to protect it as good as you can on the turn if you hit a Q.
So check/call is my line. If UTG+1 bets and someone else raises, you need to be pretty sure that many people are coming with you. If not, you probably need to fold. I don't know how your implied odds will be if you hit your Q on the turn. Many weak aces will fold. So you best hope that it is not raised. And if it is, you should likely fold.

11-22-2005, 05:08 PM

So i've read all the responses now and I think that betting out may not have been the smartest thing. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I would probably go with the check and call one bet line. I Have pretty good implied odds as long as non-spades hit. But I still have a chance with a set even if a spade hits to go along with my chance of making a full house on the river. *miracle*

I would fold the turn UI.

11-22-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So i've read all the responses now and I think that betting out may not have been the smartest thing. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I would probably go with the check and call one bet line. I Have pretty good implied odds as long as non-spades hit. But I still have a chance with a set even if a spade hits to go along with my chance of making a full house on the river. *miracle*

I would fold the turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are truly discounting any spade, then you should check/fold this flop. This is 1-out, and we don't even have any back-door draws. If we consider the remote possibility that villain has AA, then the draw goes from paper-thin to certain death.

eviljeff

11-22-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
with the spade draw out there, looks like we're down to 1 out

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a poor estimate. someone has two spades here close to 100% of the time? come on...

@bsolute_luck

11-22-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the spade draw out there, looks like we're down to 1 out

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a poor estimate. someone has two spades here close to 100% of the time? come on...

[/ QUOTE ]

simply put: i put someone on a flush draw due to the fact that there are 2 other cold callers in the hand in addition to us and the aggressor. it's fine if you disagree, but i really don't think it is that bad of a count.

11-22-2005, 08:12 PM

*grunch*

I'd call if the board was rainbow, because you're actually getting odds on your 2 outer! Since its not, however, the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif is probably dead and you are drawing to the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I think you can call on the flop, but if you don't improve on the turn you have to check/fold.

And yes, somebody has an ace.

Steve

11-22-2005, 08:26 PM

It really sucks but you probably are going to have to check/fold

11-22-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop into a field of five. If it comes back two, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

basically.... QQ is a good hand, but this is a terrible hand, i would rather have 2s3s here.