River call...

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

River: (8.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Villian is 64/7/1.1/49 over 303. Nothing out of the ordinary so far. Thanks,

Krishan

[spydog]

3-bet the flop. You might get capped, which is nice. Plus, you can't be sure he isn't raising a flush draw for a free card.

Fold the river. Ugh.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop. You might get capped, which is nice. Plus, you can't be sure he isn't raising a flush draw for a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards. 3-betting to get capped has merit.

Krishan

[Wynton]

I'm not sure I like 3-betting the flop. Won't that make it more difficult to get subsequent bets (like the turn c/r)?

Is bet/folding the river ridiculous, considering your second pair just got counterfeited?

[Entity]

You're really hoping he has 87, nonhearts, on that river?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
You're really hoping he has 87, nonhearts, on that river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I folded. Just checking up.

Krishan

[tolbiny]

Villian is 64/7/1.1/49 over 303.
Nothing out of the ordinary so far.


LOL. I think the right thing to do here is to three bet the flop and go for a turn checkraise anyway if he just calls. Then you can check fold the river like a good boy.

[kiddo]

U need aggressionfactor by street. Some of these extremly loose players are like 0.5/0.5/4

They call everything on flop and turn and they always bet river if u check which is good because u would bet with a very thin valuebet here (and u do thin valuebets on flop and turn, knowing he is on "any2"), knowing he calls way to much so when u check u really got nothing and also, and if u dont have his aggressionfactor by street u will probably think he got you.

I would 3bet flop. Yes, u will win 1 more SB if u get your checkraise on turn but u will also lose 2SB if he folds river with something weak that he would just keep on calling with if u keep on betting. Flop 3bet and he can still think u are on a good draw, but turncheckraise says something else. U just want him to keep on doing what he normally does and that is calling.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this sentiment.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this sentiment.

[/ QUOTE ]

What % of the time do you think someone doesn't follow up with a turn bet at 10/20 short when they have a flush draw barring really scary turn cards.

Krishan

[ggbman]

Your flop play is fine. The river is also a fold, nh.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this sentiment.

[/ QUOTE ]

What % of the time do you think someone doesn't follow up with a turn bet at 10/20 short when they have a flush draw barring really scary turn cards.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he has a flush draw, maybe he has 78 maybe he just has a single pair. Or maybe he has a weak A high that he wants to get to showdown cheaply with. The bottom line is people play poker poorly and strangely and I've seen my share of people taking free cards for correct and incorrect reasons in my time at 10/20.

I'm not saying your line is bad, I'm just saying people do take free card, even HU.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this sentiment.

[/ QUOTE ]



What % of the time do you think someone doesn't follow up with a turn bet at 10/20 short when they have a flush draw barring really scary turn cards.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty freaking rare heads-up at 10-20. This is one thing I know to be true. If you can digest this, then you will be confident that you can profitably cr turns that you'd otherwise be concerned of giving freebies. I don't take a freebie heads up, in the majority of headup cases at this limit...do you, if so-why?

To answer K-'s question, I'd say less than 10% of the time....maybe closer to less than 5%. And the guy who would consider this is usually new to the limit and not as used to the higher % of heads-up contests from his previous lower limit.

Edit: I'm specifically talking of floped flush draws that raise with position on the flop at 1020.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying your line is bad, I'm just saying people do take free card, even HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you think I meant never? I just meant stastically speaking, people don't take free card enough for my flop +turn line to be suboptimal.

I think you are arguing semantics.

Krishan

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying your line is bad, I'm just saying people do take free card, even HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you think I meant never? I just meant stastically speaking, people don't take free card enough for my flop +turn line to be suboptimal.

I think you are arguing semantics.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I am argueming semantics a bit but I'm also referring to your thinking in the hand. There are some myths about 6-max poker than seem to be common. 2 that I can think of off the top of my head are

1.) People never fold pairs.

2.) People never take free cards.

These are all general statements and the people making them are NOT saying that these are ALWAYS true. But they are saying that they are true a vast majority of the time. And I happen to disagree that they are the overwhelming norm.

For number 1, how do we know they never fold pair? You don't get to see what they fold.

For number 2, I guess it is just personal experience that I see people taking free cards here. Now, I agree that you are right that people probably will bet a flush draw if they've seen you can fold.

BUT, as I've said, there are other hands that want to get to showdown and might be scared of you such as weak Aces and lone pairs. These want a free card not to improve but to see a cheap showdown. I've seen it a fair amount and it is something to take into account on a board like this.

Your line isn't bad because you gain more from your check/raise so it makes up for the times you whiff but I still like 3-betting the flop for the reasons others have said and because do you still feel so good about your c/r if a heart or A falls on the turn? Now it becomes much tougher to play.

[Wynton]

I'll just chime in that - at least at 5/10 - I rarely see people take free cards, at least not hu. In my experience, if someone is raising on a draw in position, that's the same kind of person who follows through with a bet on the subsequent street.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop. You might get capped, which is nice. Plus, you can't be sure he isn't raising a flush draw for a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards. 3-betting to get capped has merit.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I take free cards a lot. Is there a reason not to?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop. You might get capped, which is nice. Plus, you can't be sure he isn't raising a flush draw for a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noone takes free cards. 3-betting to get capped has merit.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I take free cards a lot. Is there a reason not to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally your fold equity in shorthand is good enough to semibluff the next street.

Krishan