River call... (4-flush board)

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Villian is 53/10/1.6/34 over 1078 hands. I'll post my thoughts on the river in a minute.

Krishan

[spydog]

Call this post something different than the other one.

Cap the flop. Call the river.

[BugsBunny]

What are MP's stats? I may well be 3 betting preflop here.

I would cap this flop. As the hand played out I think a river call is fine. If I hadn't capped the flop I probably would have raised the turn looking for a "free" showdown, but it also depends on opps aggression numbers by street and does he get more aggressive in HU situations (some normally passive players do), among other things - eg is he capable of bluff betting the river if the 4th flush card hits after I raised the turn representing a flush.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Call this post something different than the other one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan posts interesting hands, but very boring titles. It's his biggest leak.

How about raising the turn?

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call this post something different than the other one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan posts interesting hands, but very boring titles. It's his biggest leak.

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like waiting for the turn to raise when there are a gazillion cards that look ugly to you. I think it's normally best to fast play a mid-range overpair (77-JJ) on the flop

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.

Krishan

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting because sometimes I find myself more prone to raise a turn (in position), when a third suit appears. Maybe this doesn't make sense.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting because sometimes I find myself more prone to raise a turn (in position), when a third suit appears. Maybe this doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not too bad because you can fold to a 3-bet (presumably). Sometimes the river goes wierd when the 4th flush comes though. Not sure of optimal play in that spot.

Krishan

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you need to cap the flop. You aren't going to like any heart. You also won't like any A/K/5. And even T/J/Q aren't going to like very appetizing.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you need to cap the flop. You aren't going to like any heart. You also won't like any A/K/5. And even T/J/Q aren't going to like very appetizing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind K/Q/J/T at all. Saving bets when you are behind to 555 or aces up isn't a bad thing either. It's a fine line between being weak tight and saving bets.

Krishan

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why you need to cap the flop. You aren't going to like any heart. You also won't like any A/K/5. And even T/J/Q aren't going to like very appetizing.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you say there are a whole bunch of turns that we won't like you are implicitly saying that our equity isn't that great. I like the line krishan took, it allows us to put in 2bbs on favorable turns and just one on nasty ones.

if you cap the flop you are setting yourself up for a lot of check raises on the turn, I think.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's why you need to cap the flop. You aren't going to like any heart. You also won't like any A/K/5. And even T/J/Q aren't going to like very appetizing.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you say there are a whole bunch of turns that we won't like you are implicitly saying that our equity isn't that great. I like the line krishan took, it allows us to put in 2bbs on favorable turns and just one on nasty ones.

if you cap the flop you are setting yourself up for a lot of check raises on the turn, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes play a little odd, but I check behind a lot of those scary turns after capping the flop. Basically, any heart, 5, or Ace I check behind on the turn and call a river bet. If the turn is non-scary, I will bet it and fold to a raise.

[Surfbullet]

I prefer a turn raise here despite the heart. A big part of his hand range is 5s and worse PPs. Sometimes he'll have hit a flush or flopped a boat but that's why I fold to the turn 3bet. Also, I get to check thru on nasty rivers like a 4th flush card.

I do like waiting for the turn better than capping the flop, I like to get more info (the turn card and my opponent's action) before I decide to put another raise for value in. I hate capping b/c it sets me up for a c/r, probably because I don't check behind on bad cards on the turn.

Surf

[MAxx]

I'd definitely consider the turn raise/fold.

However your question was bout the river call. I thought about it for a while and flopped back and forth on it. Seems close at 9-1 vs agg opponent. I'd probably make a crying call and hope to see a non heart 5 or lesser pp enough to make the river call +EV.....but not be real sure bout it.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.


[/ QUOTE ]


thats exactly why i think you should cap the flop. if youre going to miss out on value when like 1/3 of the deck comes off, then just pump the pot when you know youre best

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.


[/ QUOTE ]


thats exactly why i think you should cap the flop. if youre going to miss out on value when like 1/3 of the deck comes off, then just pump the pot when you know youre best

[/ QUOTE ]

Can some of you comment on my thought that the third suited card on the turn might actually constitute an additional reason to raise the turn? Maybe this hand isn't the best example (though maybe it is), but like I said before, I find myself naturally more inclined to bet a turn when that third suited card comes, particularly if I was the last aggressor on the flop.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How about raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the original plan. I guess I didn't like the heart.


[/ QUOTE ]


thats exactly why i think you should cap the flop. if youre going to miss out on value when like 1/3 of the deck comes off, then just pump the pot when you know youre best

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the correction to this is to raise the turn instead of missing EV b/c things might get hairy, not pump the flop... I think the turn raise is the greater EV route given that we can forego a raise on particularly bad cards and do some other fun things like raise for free SD or value bet the river depending on what comes off.

It's bad thinking IMO to say that b/c krishan missed value by not raising the turn he should raise the flop instead... he should just raise the turn and not miss out on the value that his intended line would get him.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

Can some of you comment on my thought that the third suited card on the turn might actually constitute an additional reason to raise the turn? Maybe this hand isn't the best example (though maybe it is), but like I said before, I find myself naturally more inclined to bet a turn when that third suited card comes, particularly if I was the last aggressor on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, so long as we expect to be ahead enough that the bet is for value...the 3rd suited card does well to protect our hand since hands with 6 outs to our pair will often fold without the suited card, while on the other side of the coin hands that may have given up will now call if they picked up a flush draw. It also saves us from being raised or reraised by some worse hands b/c of fear of the flush.

Surf