10/25 and i have no idea what's going on in this hand

[mgsimpleton]

10/25 at foxwoods, playing with AZK, john, and 6 fish. Amazing game.

CO raises to 75 (2 suited cards ish) AZK calls in CO, i call on Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2 more calls.

Flop (375): A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP leads out 200 (very predictable and bad player), AZK calls, I call on button.

Turn (975): 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP checks, AZK bets 500, I call (comments on this? I am confused... I didn't think Ari would slowplay flopped flush and i KNOW he wouldn't slowplay 2 pair, so i'm confused. so i call). MP gives one of those "i'm reluctantly pot committed so I call" calls. This means he has the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

River (2475): A /images/graemlins/club.gif

MP checks, AZk bets 800, I call.

comments on the line?

[BobboFitos]

Talking this over lamb is better then me talking it over my laptop w/ no food. but -

what about raising the flop?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think Ari would slowplay flopped flush and i KNOW he wouldn't slowplay 2 pair, so i'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... so what other hands could he have? I assume if he's not slowplaying 2 pair, a set is also right out... and I don't really see how the 3 could have improved him. A3?? Doesn't seem too likely, especially since there's only one combo of A3s.

The only other hands you have to worry about are AK and AQ. Since these are typical "mix it up PF" kinds of hands, I'm sure he calls with them occationally, instead of re-raising.

His turn bet seems awfully weak, though. It looks like he's trying to price himself in on a draw... but it sounds like MPs got the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, so what else could he be drawing with?

AxQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif? KxQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif? Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJx?

Typically the check/call flop weakish turn lead line is a top pair kind of hand trying to find out where it's at, or a draw trying to price itself in. Of course, it could also be a weak lead looking to get raised.

On the river, he makes another weak ass bet....

Somehow, it really feels like a weak-lead to induce a raise, here. It's hard to put you on much of a hand, since you've just been calling down. He may think that this is the best way to get you to put your stack in with nothing.

Not sure I can fold, though. Not for 4:1.

I think a flop raise would be good, considering your read on MP and AZK not showing any strength.

Barring that, I think you can argue for a turn raise.

Barring that, river call looks good.

[edge]

Raise preflop or flop?

[JMP300z]

None if it feels right to me. Almost like you got sucked into calling off a bunch of your chips w/ top pair avg to poor kicker (t on board).

The trips on the end is fairly irrelevant imo. Is AZK capable of PO bluffing 2 opponenets on the end? I mean I guess he has decent odds if one of you has the K and one the Q but in reality i think your shown a small flush or A4/AT a lot more often. However, you claim to know he wouldnt slowplay twopair, ill take your word for it. Maybe he turned two pair, thinks his hand is good but will fold to a lot of action. Maybe an option is to bluff raise the turn since itll show a ton of strength.
His flush would have to be either low or the nuts since you have the J and the T is on board (ie. KQ or 98- unless he calls w/ K/Q9s pf.) and by reading the MP for the bare K can let you assume if he has a made flush its of the low variety. The small bet on the end when the board pairs fits w/ a made hand on the turn that now thinks its up against either two draws or a draw and a weak made hand (no turn raise). I hope he showed a bravely played A9/8.

-JP

[TheWorstPlayer]

Maybe if you pretended it was a no limit hand and told us stack sizes we could comment intelligently. Just a thought.

[Chaostracize]

I don't know if you should be allowed to comment on the hand since you didn't come out with us.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you should be allowed to comment on the hand since you didn't come out with us.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I knew you were coming, I would have been there. I thought it was just going to be losers like Ari, Vanessa, and Rob.

[mgsimpleton]

stack sizes are... a lot. like, way more than necessary... i think ari with 5k, mp with 5k and i cover if i remember correctly.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Then I like your line. What did you consider doing differently? Working backwards, I definitely don't see value in a river raise, maybe raising the turn to protect in case the dude behind you had a better flush draw is worthwhile but pot control is probably more important than hand protection here. Same on the flop. I think if you won this pot, then you took down a nice pot with a marginal hand. And if you lost this pot, then you lost the minimum in a tricky situation. I like your line.

[BigBiceps]

I am curious, does the CO raise to 75 or someone before him raise to 75 and then the CO calls?

Also, I am a low-no-limit player, but isn't AJo a bad hand to be cold calling raises with? ie. would it be better to fold here preflop?

Did you lose to a full house on the river?
TT or 44 are probable hands since, 1) he wants set value preflop so no reraise, 2) he just calls the flop to manipulate the pot size so that if a spade turns he is not pot committed, plus he gets multiway action giving him more odds on his money to fill. 3) he bets the turn making any spade pay to draw, 4) he hits his hand is value betting the river to induce a call from an ace(I can't say this for sure because the stack sizes are not shown).

[AZK]

bah, lost track of pot size in this one like you said. I need to start playing live more.....I should have put a lot more money in.

[Maulik]

If popping the flop to give a free river card and hopefully knock some of the drawers out. Nothing wrong as played.

[mgsimpleton]

what does raising the flop accomplish? the thing is any respectable raise has to be pretty f-ing big which means no worse hands can call... i don't really want to open up a move from some sort of combination draw with the Ks... so i opt to keep the pot small by calling and waiting to see turn action. why do people prefer a flop raise here?

[turnipmonster]

would you have paid off a blank river?

[mgsimpleton]

yeah i didn't think the river changed the hand at all, it was basically a blank IMO.

[punter11235]

Is folding preflop and flop completely unacceptable ?

[turnipmonster]

the turn seems pretty standard. if he checks the turn he gives up the pot, but a bet gives him a good chance to get HU with MP who sounds like a weak calling station. I'd expect him to make that bet with any hand he thought was winning against MP, which should be a fairly wide range (TP + draw, AK/AQ, maybe nut flush, etc).

once you call that should be a fly in the ointment. you must have something pretty decent to call not closing action, and he must know this. he probably also knows you don't have a big hand. on the river he bets 800, you are getting good odds to look him but the Ks is accounted for, and AK/AQ are very reasonable hands for him to have, albeit somewhat more unlikely now given the river.

I can't really put him on a hand we're beating here other than a pair + busted draw and that would be weird.

--turnipmonster

[mgsimpleton]

i can't put him on ahand that we're beating except pair plus busted draw either. i also can't put him on a hand that beats me. i really just can't put him on a hand.

thing is, the bet of 800 (by his own admission and i knew it at the time) was a mistake. he's one of those foolish internet players that bets not nearly enough live, so this could have been a bluff... that must be taken into account.

and punter, folding preflop or flop is out of the question.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't really put him on a hand we're beating here other than a pair + busted draw and that would be weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[AZK]

I told you I break late. It takes me a while to get into the live poker setting. There is no box telling you the size of the pot and how much you can bet. I just wasn't thinking, or rather, I was thinking too quickly since I had air, which resulted in such a quick bet, which if I thought for a second or two more, would have been at least double what it was.

Side note: Numerous people have now told me that I have mega bet tells live, namely the speed of my bets can be used to infer the strength of my hand. Most people have said when I just insta bet something on the end almost before the river card is out it's always a bluff, this was probably one of those situations. I really need to work on my live game.

[turnipmonster]

well I would play AK/AQ exactly like this except probably bet more on the river. I don't think those hands are unlikely, but maybe I am crazy.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
well I would play AK/AQ exactly like this except probably bet more on the river. I don't think those hands are unlikely, but maybe I am crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably would too, but I for sure would have reraised pre which would have completely changed the hand. I might even check AK/AQ on the end to vanessa?

[mgsimpleton]

exactly. NO WAY does ari not isolate fishie fish who bets 75 preflop with ANY premium (or even not so premium) hand.

[turnipmonster]

I wasn't sure if you would have rr preflop or not, I sometimes do sometimes don't. betting the river is maybe questionable but to be honest I do stuff like this all the time and you'd be surprised. not to be results oriented, but in this situation it would have been an excellent bet.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

I really promise I am not being results oriented again, but while I certainly can't argue with reraising pf we did get you in with AJo by not rring /images/graemlins/smile.gif. if bad players are in the blinds I think not rring is fine.

[AZK]

Hmm, I've started adopting the deep stacks fishy loose passive game always reraise preflop with AK/AQ. I'd rather play a $500 pot heads up than 5 way. Plus I've started to realize that the more money I put in on earlier streets, the easier the later streets become. Does this make sense?

PS: Duck, when are you going to post the hand where I turn quads and almost bust your ass? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Matt Flynn]

As played with no physical read you call, natch. Most of the time you lose.