Revised poll: what's the best/greatest poker book?

[betgo]

I think I came up with a better list of choices based on forum input.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Betgo:

In my opinion, the two books that impacted how the games are played the most was David's original Hold 'em Poker and our Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players.

The Harrington books should have the same effect on the tourneys, but it's still too early to tell for sure.

best wishes,
Mason

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Betgo:

In my opinion, the two books that impacted how the games are played the most was David's original Hold 'em Poker and our Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players.

The Harrington books should have the same effect on the tourneys, but it's still too early to tell for sure.

best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

My question was the best/greatest book, not the one with the most impact. I thought of including HPFAP and probably should have.

I know you posted before on the book with the greatest impact. While I don't disagree with the two you mentioned, I think "Super System" (mainly Brunson's chapter) also had a great impact, both on how the game is played and on later poker books.

[Jonny5]

The book that had the most impact on me was Super System (specifically Doyle's chapters) as it was the first book that got me to think differently and HUGELY effected my results in live (Single Table) tournies.

After that point I read everything I could get my hands on and my new personal favorites are
Theory of Poker
HoldEm for advanced players
Small Stakes Holdem
Harrington on Holdem 1&2.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I came up with a better list of choices based on forum input.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but you didn't. You still haven't defined "best" or "greatest", or put them in context. The choices are all over the map, and cannot be compared.

Among other things, "best" is defined as " Most satisfactory, suitable, or useful". If something is most suitable or useful, it must be suitable or useful for something.

The books listed are worse than apples and oranges, they are fruit cocktail. Except for SS, none of those books are comparable to any of the others for a particular area of study. SS tries to be all things to all people, and there is generally a better dedicated book out there for any particular area discussed in SS.

You have asked the poker equivalent of what is the best motor vehicle. One person might answer a BMW sedan is best. Another might reply that a BMW is a horrible motor vehicle for hauling plywood, and a Ford F-150 is the best. In both cases, the lack of context makes the question, and the answers, meaningless.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I came up with a better list of choices based on forum input.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but you didn't. You still haven't defined "best" or "greatest", or put them in context. The choices are all over the map, and cannot be compared.

Among other things, "best" is defined as " Most satisfactory, suitable, or useful". If something is most suitable or useful, it must be suitable or useful for something.

The books listed are worse than apples and oranges, they are fruit cocktail. Except for SS, none of those books are comparable to any of the others for a particular area of study. SS tries to be all things to all people, and there is generally a better dedicated book out there for any particular area discussed in SS.

You have asked the poker equivalent of what is the best motor vehicle. One person might answer a BMW sedan is best. Another might reply that a BMW is a horrible motor vehicle for hauling plywood, and a Ford F-150 is the best. In both cases, the lack of context makes the question, and the answers, meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had a poll on what the best motor vehicle is, I don't think you would have one car getting 2/3 of the votes as here with "Theory of Poker". I also don't see what is wrong with a poll as to the best motor vehicle. There is no right or wrong answer, just opinions.

Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players is a great book, I've not read the other one, but are you really saying that these two books have had a greater impact on how the game is played than Super System, especially Doyle's chapter? I've picked up some great ideas from Hold Em for Advance Players that I have applied to NL, but the basis for my game comes from Super System.

The only reason Theory of Poker is running away with this poll is because you failed to include Play Poker Like the Pros.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bear:

In my opinion, no question about it. HPFAP changed the games like no other book before or since, and this happened in the late 1980s and early 1990s. As for SS, you can't be more wrong. Virtually no one even read it for years, and as for Doyle's chapter, there wasn't any no limit games for close to 20 years with the exception of a couple of games here and there (with the there being mostly Northern California). SS didn't come back into favor until the TV shows began calling it the bible of poker.

By the way, "having impact" doesn't necessary mean its a great book in the way that most other people consider a book great. But HPFAP changed the way hold 'em is played by virtually everyone, even those who have never read a poker book.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi betgo:

I agree that your question is actually different. I do disagree with your comments on SS. As I state in my other post, virtually no one read it for many years. Now I don't have statistics to prove this, but I have many years of conversations with many people. SS only came back into favor when it began to be touted on the TV shows.

Best wishes,
Mason

[betgo]

I think "Super System" has had a lot of influence on NLHE/PLHE play. NLHE has always been the main event in most tournaments and PLHE has been played in Europe and elsewhere. In any case NLHE and "Super System" are popular now.

While the other chapters in SS1 aren't read much today, the approach of having expert contributors is important. A lot of poker books were/are written by at best grinder-type pros.

So, Mr. Malmuth,
What do you think, however, of the effect of that book on today's game? And, if you wouldn't mind, what do you think of the overall strategy presented in that book? Latel, I've notice it biting me in the @$$. Too many check-raises, etc. Everybody wants to run me down, etc. You know, I think it would be great if 2+2 came out with a NL book.

[avatar77]

In my humble opinion, HEPFAP is without a doubt the greatest poker book ever written.

Virtually every serious player has read it and it has impacted the way Hold'em is played on every level.

SS may come in a distant second only because No Limit is back in vogue now. But still, you can be a very successful NL player without reading SS. I don't think you can say the same about HEFAP for limit.

I am curious to know which title has sold more copies...Mason would you know the figures for this? I do know that HEFAP is the all time best selling book for 2+2.

Anyway, my 2 cents...I just think HEFAP has had the greatest impact on our game.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bear:

If you're referring to the no limit section in SS, I have stated before that I do not agree with much of the strategy presented. Constantly getting all-in with a questionable hand should not be a successful strategy. Ironically, after the long introduction where Doyle advocates this ultra aggressive style, he becomes much more conservative when he starts talking about specific hands.

Two Plus Two expects to have a no limit book by the spring.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi avatar:

I don't have numbers for SS but HPFAP has sold a little less than 220,000 copies. I do suspect that SS has sold slightly more due to its sales the past two years.

I also agree that SS is impacting the way no limit games are currently being played. However, I suspect that as new books enter the market, this impact from SS will significantly lessen.

Best wishes,
Mason

I was being a smart, uh, I was being flippant about the 2+2 book, I'm aware and waiting just like everyone else. I have my local Border's on stand-by.
His aggression slows down, I think, because of suck-outs and check raises. SS was the first poker book I ever read. I thought it was God's gift to poker. I did everything I could to play just like that. Now I'm losing money playing like that. People expect the aggression I bring to the table so they try to slow play monsters against me, they check-raise me constantly, they will invest large chunks of money to outdraw me. When you raise EP with AA and get four callers, if the board is remotely coordinated, one of those guys has the draw and will not let go of it regardless, there's now too much money in the pot to get them off the hand. Now I'm working on changing my game. I think I'll give Ciaffone a try, I've heard good things about the pot-limit, no-limit book. By the way, I appreciate you responding to my posts and I like the way you always address the people you're responding to with "Hi Bear" etc.

[Aceshigh7]

I think the greatest poker book ever written is Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players.

Hi Mr. Malmuth,
[ QUOTE ]
I also agree that SS is impacting the way no limit games are currently being played. However, I suspect that as new books enter the market, this impact from SS will significantly lessen.

[/ QUOTE ]
If Sklansky's book is anything like Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players, I would think so.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bear:

The Ciaffone book is pretty good. You'll see that he advocates a more conservative style.

Best wishes,
Mason

[2+2 wannabe]

I've read 4 of these books, one is on its way (ITPM), and have no desire to read the 6th (SS)

7CSFAP is probably the most in-depth book of the 4 I've read - it's amazingly put together

TOP is brilliant

SSHE is, well, the best 25 dollar investment I have ever made

HPFAP is great too - but not at the level of these other three IMO

PLNL is decent (I'm not a big fan of it), but does not deserve to be on the list as these other books

Hi Mr. Malmuth,
I went to my local Border's today to get some fishwrap and they didn't have it, but they did order it for me. I'll be sure to read it as soon as I get it. Would that style, in your highly-esteemed expert opinion, be the proper style to combat today's high-octane, push all-in with every drawing hand type of game. I'm getting check-raised constantly.

[benkahuna]

I judge best by the best at what it tries to achieve. Harrington is IMO the best among these.

TOP is awesome and the most important, but it's not as well written or easily digested. In all fairness, HoH came much later.

[avatar77]

Thanks Mason for the numbers on HEFAP.

SS would only be considered the greatest poker book of all time if you only used sales volume as the only criteria for 'greatest book'.

But if you used the 'criteria' of relevancy of content to how to approach and think poker, you can easily argue that not only HEFAP but also TOP and HOH 1 & 2 beat out SS.

SS is dated and has been and always will be known to be the book for the NL section (despite the fact that some other sections by Reese and Sklansky were excellent). If you had to choose one book and only one book for your poker career, no one would say SS would be it. Even if your game was NL because clearly HOH is a far superior book. I firmly believe that HOH will eventually displace SS as the bible for NL if it hasn't already. Brunson's style is flawed for certain types of games and is not an easy style for newer players to learn and master. HOH focuses more on principles and fundamentals which can be adjusted to different styles.

What makes HEFAP so great is because it is really the most applicable book for hold em and it was not only applicable at the time it was released but still applicable today. Before SSHE was launched, HEFAP was really the only universal 'must have', 'must read' book on Limit for serious players. Unless the rules/structure of limit changes, I can not see how HEFAP will ever be dated.

If you had to choose one book that is the core of any poker game, then TOP would easily be the greatest poker book ever. TOP just isn't read as frequently and as seriously because the reading is a bit dry at times (I guess for the same reason people don't read the bible as often).

I'm not a limit player, but I have read HPFAP and agree that it is a great book. Probably the best on the game. However, to say that SS is dated, I must disagree. Rumor has it that it is the only book several of the more well-known internet players have read. They are a little hyper and play this style more aggressively than advocated in the book, but they are essentially playing the way Brunson teaches.

[betgo]

I have had arguments about this before with Mason and others. However, I think that Brunson's chapter in SS is the best ever written. You don't have to follow his LAG advice. There is a lot more to the chapter. The main point is how to play big pairs, little pairs, AK, suited connectors, etc. and how to play various types of flops.

Plus it is good to understand aggressive plays like semibluffs even if you are not going to play LAG. Yeh, the LAG appraoch doesn't work against loose fish, but neither do most of the plays in HPFAP.

I think that HOH2 is the best poker book iv ever read.
I will follow that with TOP,HPFAP,HOH1,followed by chiffy's book

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that HOH2 is the best poker book iv ever read.
I will follow that with TOP,HPFAP,HOH1,followed by chiffy's book

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's Chiffy?

[avatar77]

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I think that HOH2 is the best poker book iv ever read.
I will follow that with TOP,HPFAP,HOH1,followed by chiffy's book

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's Chiffy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 'Chiffy' is Bob Ciaffone - that's the first time I've heard him be called that.
He didn't state which book by Ciaffone though..PLNL, Improve Your Poker or Middle Limit Hold'em. All 3 books are very popular.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I think that HOH2 is the best poker book iv ever read.
I will follow that with TOP,HPFAP,HOH1,followed by chiffy's book

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's Chiffy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 'Chiffy' is Bob Ciaffone - that's the first time I've heard him be called that.
He didn't state which book by Ciaffone though..PLNL, Improve Your Poker or Middle Limit Hold'em. All 3 books are very popular.

[/ QUOTE ]
ur right id say any of them 3 books are worthy of praise.
followed by SSHE and yao's book. With hilger on their heels.

[SenecaJim]

wow. That's like best movie regardless if drama or comedy and disregarding the age of the viewer.

Best book for me so far is SSHE because I am playing cash games, not tourn., and limit, not no limit. I play 5-10 or 10-20 presently, depending on various factors.

TOP is THE BOOK I think. For me, not yet. I have read it twice and made me understand poker in a way I did not. However, more readings are ahead and like the game itself, I understand what the whole book is saying but I'm neither good enough nor experienced enough to have ownership of all this material. Someday I hope I'm good enough to say TOP for me.

In the meantime, even though i have already read it and referred back to sections at times, next on my ladder will probably be HFAP. I hope I am skilled enough eventually and in the type of games where this book will be the "best book" for awhile.