A session in review with regards to preflop

[kiemo]

At 1/2 I am a 13% VPIP over 18k hands. I posted about 2 months ago about a downswing I was having and one of the general consenses was I needed to loosen up a little preflop. Additional I saw similar other threads where the message was pretty much the same. 18% seems to be the accepted norm for solid preflop play.

So I actively made an effort to search out more spots to play. And 6k hands after I made this effort my VPIP is - 14%! And that was with playing hands I normally fold (with horrid results on most of them)

So I thought I would go over a preflop session of mine, maybe someone can point out something I am missing. I bolded what I consider questionable plays.


1: BB: 53o - 3 callers. I check
2. SB: K4o - UTG+1 raises. 3 callers. I fold
3. But: - 34o - fold
4. CO: 54o - fold
5. MP2: 53s - fold
6. MP1: K7o - fold
7. UTG+2: 73o - fold
8. UTG+1: 33 - fold
9. UTG: ATo - fold
10. BB: 83o - 3 callers. Check
11. SB: 96s - 5 callers. I call
12. But: KTs - UTG raises. 2 callers. I cold-call. BB 3-bets. UTG caps. 2 callers. I cold call again.
13. CO: K9s - MP1 raises. 1 caller. I fold
14. MP2: 72s - fold
15. MP1: J2s - fold
16. UTG+1 - 32o - fold
17. UTG: 95s - fold
18. UTG: J5o - fold (UTG twice in a row since seat to left sat back in)
19. BB: 82o - check
20. SB: K2o - fold
21. But: 72o - fold
22. CO: 95s - fold
23. MP2: Q3o - fold
24. MP1: 75s - fold
25. UTG+1: 84s - fold

At this point I notice the guy 3 seats to my right is pretty much winning 60% of all the hands. He plays every hand and bets every single flop and rarely folds. This doesnt fare well for me as everytime I play on a table with a maniac I get the snot pounded out of me. I think about leaving the table but with about 40% seeing the flop and a decent pot average of 6-7bb, I decide to stay around.

26. UTG: A7o - fold
27. BB: A5s - 3 callers. Check. check fold ace high flop when maniac bets and is reraised by button. He shows A5, button shows A4
28. SB: Q2o - fold
29. But: 55 - Only maniac calls. I call - with only one caller I normally fold this.
30. CO: Q7o - fold
31. MP3: 93s - fold
32. MP2: 64o - fold
33. MP1: AQs - folded to me. I raise. Maniac calls from BB. Final board is AAK24 - maniac of course shows AK
34. UTG+2: J5s - fold
35. UTG+2: K6o - fold
36. BB: A6o - 2 late callers - check.
37. SB: 92o - fold
38. But: QTo - 2 callers. CO raises. I fold
39. CO: K3o - fold
40. MP3: 42s - fold
41. MP2: T2o - fold

Maniac sits out.

42. UTG+2: 65s - fold
43. UTG: J2o - fold
44. BB: J3o - every folds to me - I WIN A HAND!
45. SB: AJo - folded to me. I raise. BB calls with K6o and flops his full house
46. But: 53o - fold
47. CO: 72o - fold
48. MP2: T5s - fold
49. MP1: Q9o - fold
50. UTG+1: 52o - fold
51. UTG: 93o - fold
52. SB: 53o - fold
53: But: KJo - 1 poster. I caller. I call. Blinds call. I decide to mimic the maniac and bluff at the all low flop and win my second hand!
54. CO: J5o - fold
55. MP2: T8o - fold
56. MP1: K7s - Folded to me. I fold
57. UTG+1: 72o - fold
58. UTG+1: K6o - fold
59. UTG: 73o - fold
60. BB: 83o - 1 caller. I check
61. SB: T7o - fold
62. But: T8o - fold

Maniac sits back in.

63. CO: J5s - fold
64. MP2: 97o - fold
65. MP2: Q3o - fold
66. MP1: 42o - fold
67. UTG+1: 94o - fold
68. UTG: T7o - fold
69. BB: KQs - 1 caller. MP2 raises. Maniac calls. I call.
70. SB: QTo - 2 callers. I call
71. But: Q7o - fold
72. CO: Q2o - fold
73. MP2: 42o - fold
74. MP1: T7o - fold
75. UTG+1: A9o - I decide to tilt off a raise. Folded to maniac in BB. I bet the empty flop and turn. He calls down with Q8o and catches his 8 on the river.
76. UTG: 32o - fold


VPIP for session: 11.84
Total for session: (-23BB) - My wife shakes her head at me becuase she knows the results of playing with a maniac before I even tell her.

And just for fun.

Maniac results
VPIP - 90%. W$WSF - 54%. Amount won - 20 BB, which was about 30BB about 4 hands previous to me leaving table.

Rock on my left (see hand 45)
VPIP: 14% W$SD: 100% Amount won - 25 BB

And my struggles continue. My graph for the last 6k hands looks like a perfect skiing mountain. Every time I post a nice win or series of wins, a huge losing session follows, like the one posted above.

My VPIP for 1/2 is about 21%.

Only two.
9) - Call.
53) - I raise.

Rest seems standard.

[Guruman]

hand 27:

I lead into the maniac and hope for a raise to clear the field. If we get HU I call down.

hand 29:

I raise pf and call down vs the maniac here, betting if checked to.

hand 33:

I hope you lost a ton here vs a maniac.

hand 69:

I reraise for value here.

nice table.

8. UTG+1: 33 - fold
9. UTG: ATo - fold

these 2 i look at together as they are both borderline, really dependent on table conditions

if you think your calling with 33 will get 5+ players limping in a majority of the time then call it, but regardless there is very little difference in +ev call or fold

ATo if the table is very weak/tight then you can raise or maybe call, most of the time (90%+) folding is correct. altho again i doubt there is THAT much relative difference in +ev, particularly when you get the chance to outplay postflop

12. But: KTs - UTG raises. 2 callers. I cold-call. BB 3-bets. UTG caps. 2 callers. I cold call again.

i would be much more likely to do this with JTs or even T9s, high card value isnt worth anything here so i think you need the straight possibilities to make it play multiway. that said you dont know its gonna be capped so its not the worst play. i think i probably fold here most of the time tho

29. But: 55 - Only maniac calls. I call - with only one caller I normally fold this.

calling is the worst possible option here, even with the added implied odds from an aggro postflop player. raise to isolate or just let it go

27. BB: A5s - 3 callers. Check. check fold ace high flop when maniac bets and is reraised by button. He shows A5, button shows A4

would have to see this in more detail but it looks like you should be leading here

53: But: KJo - 1 poster. I caller. I call. Blinds call. I decide to mimic the maniac and bluff at the all low flop and win my second hand!

what are the callers stats? you should probably be finding the raise button preflop here, both for equity and to make the blinds pay to see

75. UTG+1: A9o - I decide to tilt off a raise. Folded to maniac in BB. I bet the empty flop and turn. He calls down with Q8o and catches his 8 on the river.

terrible... lay down preflop. if ur tilting leave the table


i expect you are probably more experienced than myself, but i would suggest that overall your preflop stats here are cold (you arent getting much love from the deck) but solid. that means that if you are losing money the vast majority is probably coming from your postflop action

another point tho is that the KJo and 55 hand are both perfect blind steal situations that you missed, so even with a small sample this is quite possibly an area for improvement. in late positions you just have to stay aggressive on the blinds or you will bleed to death at 1/2

[numeri]

12. (CC with KTs) I think the CC is bad. You're likely to be dominated. I'll CC JTs before KTs.

33. (AQ on AAK flop) Don't fear the worst. You'll have the best hand a majority of the time.

45. (AJ vs K6 and FH) How much did you spend here? Just because you raise pre-flop doesn't mean you have to see showdown.

53. (KJo) I would raise this.

56. (K7s) Why would you play this? I'll raise it on the button first-in, but not in MP.

Bad run of cards. You didn't miss many (or any) opportunites to increase your VP$IP here.

If you want to get your VPIP up play 6 max. Lots of these hands become playable (given the right circumstances) there, the players suck, and it helps your reading skills.

Steve

[kiemo]

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12. (CC with KTs) I think the CC is bad. You're likely to be dominated. I'll CC JTs before KTs.

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Thats why it was bolded so I could get opinions. I didnt really like the cold call either.

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33. (AQ on AAK flop) Don't fear the worst. You'll have the best hand a majority of the time.


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I have been accused of MUB many times. While maniac like to bet out, he would call down most times he was reraised. Figuring my hand was good, I called a flop and turn bet and waited till the river to reraise. Poorly played by me IMO.

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45. (AJ vs K6 and FH) How much did you spend here? Just because you raise pre-flop doesn't mean you have to see showdown.


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Bet flop, Bet turn blank, Bet river blank and stupidly called his reraise on the river. At that point I didnt have a good read on him and the table had been folding alot when the maniac was betting so I thought I could push him off and possibly still have the best hand.

53. (KJo) I would raise this.

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56. (K7s) Why would you play this? I'll raise it on the button first-in, but not in MP.


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Possible blind steal as my image had to be pretty rockish. I thought better of it but wanted opinions

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Bad run of cards. You didn't miss many (or any) opportunites to increase your VP$IP here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sadly this isnt a bad run of cards for me, its pretty much the normal night. Other night in 70 hands I got dealt 32 and 52 nine times. Thats the reason I picked this session to post becuase it was fairly average night. I might post another session but I dont want to go overboard with this idea.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to get your VPIP up play 6 max. Lots of these hands become playable (given the right circumstances) there, the players suck, and it helps your reading skills.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

I have tried 6 max. Got killed. I am terribly unlucky at the shorthanded game as my opponents seem to just get smacked over the head with the deck every time I sit down.

When I get out of my current downswing (which doesnt seem wil ever happen) and get some confidence back I intend to go back though.

[Felipe]

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56. (K7s) Why would you play this? I'll raise it on the button first-

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he folded it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree with the raising 55 from L.P. and KJo. They are good short handed. I think the rest is good. I would have lead with the Pair of aces (A5s hand) also. Playing against maniacs is difficult, but when they are very loose, they are going in with dominated and other inferior hands, which will put you in a very good position post-flop. Make sure to get a better seat ( the the left of the maniac ) on him so you can isolate and take his money.

And nice table.

[Guruman]

If you're having confidence issues, then drop down a level and live a little. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Poker players strive to eliminate luck from the games in which we play. Every decision has an expected value regardless of what actually happens next. Stay on the good side and the luck will take care of itself.

[milesdyson]

another bad run of cards. nothing stands out here much at all, but if you're 14% still, you're still not playing enough hands...

also your results over the last 6k on a certain subset of hands are not very meaningful at all.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]



75. UTG+1: A9o - I decide to tilt off a raise. Folded to maniac in BB. I bet the empty flop and turn. He calls down with Q8o and catches his 8 on the river.

terrible... lay down preflop. if ur tilting leave the table


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Terrible maybe, but the play worked exactly as I wanted it too. My goal was to get heads up with maniac. It worked. Then I wanted to take control of hand and have him call me down, which I figured he would with any two and he did. Normally I dont do this but since I had already decided it was my next to last hand I decided to see if my reads were good.

Then I left.

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75. UTG+1: A9o - I decide to tilt off a raise. Folded to maniac in BB. I bet the empty flop and turn. He calls down with Q8o and catches his 8 on the river.

terrible... lay down preflop. if ur tilting leave the table


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Terrible maybe, but the play worked exactly as I wanted it too.

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this is the definition of results orientation

[kiemo]

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Terrible maybe, but the play worked exactly as I wanted it too.

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this is the definition of results orientation

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Huh?

I had a table read that I could raise here and gets head up with the BB. Now normally I dont make this play, but I was a little pissy with the session results so I tested this read to see if it was accurate and it was. I also had a read on BB that he would call down with any 2. Again the read was right.

In this instance my reads were dead on accurate and I lost the pot, so I fail to see how this defines anything. There are lots of plays made in poker that are done becuase of reads rather then ideal poker, blind stealing with crap becuase you know the blinds are weak is one example - you would probably praise this as good poker though, so I do not think you completely understand the concept of results orientated.

[deception5]

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75. UTG+1: A9o - I decide to tilt off a raise. Folded to maniac in BB. I bet the empty flop and turn. He calls down with Q8o and catches his 8 on the river.

terrible... lay down preflop. if ur tilting leave the table


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Terrible maybe, but the play worked exactly as I wanted it too.

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this is the definition of results orientation

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I think this is fine actually. A9o is not a standard raise from UTG+1, but if the table is tight there's a very good chance you'll fold a better ace behind you. If you are going to play it you clearly have to raise it so well done. Too many people get hung up on preflop absolutes imo.

Betting flop and turn against a calling station is also usually standard depending on the flop (betting the flop, checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet are also fine as there's a good chance he'll bluff the river and you don't risk betting the turn and having to call a river bet anyway).

[deception5]

As far as the bolded ones:

Hand 8: Fine - Limp at a loose table fold at a tight.
Hand 9: Raise/limp/fold are all ok here depending on table conditions.
Hand 12: Fine.
Hand 29: I raise. This is a great hand to isolate the maniac, especially if the blinds are tight.
Hand 56: Easy fold, nothing questionable about this one.

Unbolded ones:

Hand 20: K2o. If it's folded to me in the small blind I'm usually raising any ace or king and leading any flop.
Hand 27: I lead the flop.
Hand 62: This is usually a raise for me unless the blinds are loose and go to showdown very often.

After reading othe discussions in the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 45: Bet flop, Bet turn blank, Bet river blank and stupidly called his reraise on the river. At that point I didnt have a good read on him and the table had been folding alot when the maniac was betting so I thought I could push him off and possibly still have the best hand.

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I check the river and consider calling/folding. Bet/calling the river is way overplaying ace high here.

Hand 53 I also call. Raising generally isn't going to thin the field to less than 3 opponents and you don't have a huge edge. Finally, you already have the button. Betting the flop is not a bluff, you often have the best hand.


Stop worrying about how other players are doing over 80 hands. How do you think this guy does long term? You are clearly letting him put you on tilt.