Could you fold a flopped King High flush???

[theordinaryboy]

Prima Round 3(Similar to party steps) $112.5+11.25 buy-in

5 Left, 4 qualify and get $275.27.5 buy-in 5th gets level 2 buy-in and gets $25+2.5 buy-in.

Player 1 = 7800
Villain = 4000
Player 2 = 600
Player 3 = 1000
Hero = 1600

Player 3 posts sb 75
Hero posts bb 150 and has Kh Qh

Player 1 folds
Villain calls 150
Player 2 folds
Player 3 folds
Hero checks

Flop = 7h 3h 2h Pot = 375

Hero bets 300
villain goes all-in for 3850
Hero????

hmm i dunno tough one. i call hoping he is either trying to protect a over pair, useing his stack to try and bully you off a draw ( people hate giveing credit to a flopped flush) or just has the ace and is making a semi bluff. i dunno when presents like a flopped k high flush come i want to get all my chips in the pot, and if he his giving me the chance im going to take it ( if hew has the nutts then so be it im signing up for another SNG)shut your eyes and hope for the best. also keep in mind with his chip stack vs. yours knowing he isnt in trouble to go brokeif you have a better hand, he could make the same move with a J10 or J9 flush too.

I would have to put him on either a flopped set or a mini bluff because with the stack sizes you have given us there is really nothing else. It doesn't seem like he wants you to chase though.

[gumpzilla]

There are cases I can imagine where a flopped king high flush could be folded. When you're still on the flop and the action has gone bet-push is not one of those times. Sets, overpairs and the naked A /images/graemlins/heart.gif can all pull this move. Easy call.

[splashpot]

This is not tough at all. I'd call an 9 high flush here.

Edit: after re-reading the payout structure, I could see a fold. Not because you're behind, but because top 4 get the same prize.

Insta-call. Really though, there are so many hands he could have other than Axh that I think you just have to.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not tough at all. I'd call an 9 high flush here.

Edit: after re-reading the payout structure, I could see a fold. Not because you're behind, but because top 4 get the same prize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there are satellite payout issues here, but you already have too much of your stack in the middle. Call.

[Slim Pickens]

fold:
Player 1 = 7800 ===> $302
Villain = 4000+525 = 4525 ===> $298
Player 2 = 600 ===> $170
Player 3 = 1000-75 = 925 ===> $223
Hero = 1600-450 = 1150 ===> $244

call and win:
Player 1 = 7800 = $301
Villain = 4000-1600 = 2600 = $284
Player 2 = 600 = $153
Player 3 = 1000-75 = 925 = $210
Hero = 1600+1675 = 3275 = $290

call and lose:
Hero = $0

244 = 290x ===> x=0.84

You have to win 84% of the time for this call to be profitable by ICM. If you're more than half sure he has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, fold. Call otherwise. I'm calling.

[pokerlaw]

by betting out here, you made your decision, call.

Looks like a set or an overpair to me. He is protecting his hand and wants to take it down here.

[popimp3333]

im happy he made my decision for me here an call gladly. he obviously wants you out of the hand here. yippey for flopped flushes. wished it happened to me!

[theordinaryboy]

There are two key parts in my original post which nobody has pointed out yet.

The first is the tournament structure:

[ QUOTE ]
5 Left, 4 qualify and get $275.27.5 buy-in 5th gets level 2 buy-in and gets $25+2.5 buy-in

[/ QUOTE ]

This is extremely important as anyone who plays satelites should know. 1st place = 4th place, therefore bubble aggression to come 1st, like that this forum advises for normal sng's should not be applied (well thats not entirely true, but the normal style of play should be altered).

Everyone should know the "is it correct to fold AA pre-flop argument" i think either hoh 1 or 2 or sklansky's TPFAP had a section where in a satellite you can fold AA pre-flop, well in satellite/steps/rounders if there is only one more person needed to go out and there is a small stack, then folding golden opportunities can sometimes be strangely correct.

This covers the second key part i talked about at the beginning of this post.

[ QUOTE ]
Player 1 = 7800
Villain = 4000
Player 2 = 600
Player 3 = 1000
Hero = 1600

[/ QUOTE ]

In this example there is a small stack (player 2 with 600) and a semi-small stack as well (player 3 with 1000).

Ok, lets go back to the original post and do a bit of hand analysis.

What do we believe villain has, these parameters are very rough so feel free to argue the values i have given.

Ace high flush 5% (a tad generous perhaps)
A Set 15%
An A High flush draw 40%
Top pair 40%

Now the "top pair 40%" may seem high however this player had been re-raising players knowing that with the small stack out there they must have a very good hand to call, now the question is, is a flopped king high flush a good enough hand?

Villain has Flopped nut flush, Hero wins 0% x 5 = 0
Villain has Set, hero wins 65.6% x 15 = 9.84
Villain has A high Flush draw, hero wins 71% x 40 = 28.4
Villain has top pair, hero wins 97.2% x 40 = 38.88

Villain wins hand = 0 + 9.84 + 28.4 + 38.88 = 77.12%

Thats a pretty high % really, now just because we win the hand does not necessarily mean we will still qualify, we must have all seen small stacks recover from nothing, however we will win the majority of the time, so if we say we qualify to the next round 75% of the time we win this hand.

Can we still fold a 75% chance to qualify to the next round?

Probably not, however, i really don't think it would be a terrible play or even the worst play.

Small stack has to double up, this means that he is likely to go all-in and risk his tournament life.

If we give the chance of small stack going out before us if we fold everyhand and he goes all-in against someon else as 50%.

This means we have a 50% of winning simply by folding every hand.

If small stack does win then he will double up to between 1000-1600

this leaves us with 3 small stacks:

the old semi-stack (player 3) on 1000 odd
hero on 1200 odd
and the old small stack on 1000-1600

now very simply if we say that the chance of each player busting out is 1 in 3 (this is very simply and perhaps a flaw in my argument but i do not know how to calculate it better)

That means that hero has a 66% of qualifing even if the small stack does double up.

If we add these values up then

Hero wins by small stack busting 50%
Hero wins after small stack doubles up 66% x 0.5 = 33%

50% + 33% = 83%

Hero calls flopped king high flush = 75%
Hero folds flopped king high flush = 83%

I am not saying that it is correct to fold in this situation, just that i do not believe that folding is too bad either.

Anyway, discuss, also what do people believe now?

[theordinaryboy]

Slim it seems ICM could be used here to answer my question, however, did you input the payout structure as

1st-4th $275.50+27.5 ($302.5)
5th $25+2.5 ($27.5)

not sure how this would change your results just checking that the settings were correct?

[splashpot]

A few people, including myself, already mentioned and considered these points.

[theordinaryboy]

this is true splashpot, but as you may notice the post i made is rather long and i hadn't read your or any other posts that did mention the 2 key points at the time of writing my long post.

I apologise for any confusion or annoyance that my long post caused.

[pokerponcho]

I agree. The most likely scenario is that he flopped a lower flush. In which event he is drawing dead.

The analysis doesn't even concider this a possibility.

Seems silly to fold.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Slim it seems ICM could be used here to answer my question, however, did you input the payout structure as

1st-4th $275.50+27.5 ($302.5)
5th $25+2.5 ($27.5)

not sure how this would change your results just checking that the settings were correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I got the payout structure in there. I don't think the online ICM calculator works here so I used my own because I'm /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[Pokerscott]

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by betting out here, you made your decision, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This to me seems like the answer. If folding to the money is your plan betting into a bigger stack is a horrible idea. I call in a heartbeat myself. If you are going to bet I think you have to call or else the bet was horrible -EV imo.

Pokerscott

This seems like a less ambiguous situation than a simple over pair or TPTK satellite bubble sitaution.

Besides, who bets a flopped nut flush like that?

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slim it seems ICM could be used here to answer my question, however, did you input the payout structure as

1st-4th $275.50+27.5 ($302.5)
5th $25+2.5 ($27.5)

not sure how this would change your results just checking that the settings were correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I got the payout structure in there. I don't think the online ICM calculator works here so I used my own because I'm /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]


does your calculate tournaments that pay more than 3 spots? if so, would you share?

edit: if Yes to both of the above, PM me, cause i'll probably forget to check back to this post.

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by betting out here, you made your decision, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
by betting out here, you made your decision, call.

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Thats what I'm thinking too. If you aren't ready to call an raise here for all your chips why bet out at all, might aswell check/fold and save yourself those 400 chips. But nah, you have a really nice hand here to double up, I call.

After your bet, you have 1150 left, if shortie doubles up then you're far from finishing in the top 4, so for this reason I make the call, and just pray he doesn't suck-out on me.

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
by betting out here, you made your decision, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This to me seems like the answer. If folding to the money is your plan betting into a bigger stack is a horrible idea. I call in a heartbeat myself. If you are going to bet I think you have to call or else the bet was horrible -EV imo.


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