worst hand ever

[sthief09]

both opponents are TAGgy with PFR's over 20 (played this a few days ago but i think both were around 35/22 or so)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (12.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

River: (12.33 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds

[wheelz]

i'd just like to know if preflop is your standard play.

[aba20]

Yuck. This is a horribly played hand. Fold preflop, turn ok, river you gotta call here with the fourth nuts, getting over 16-1.

[wheelz]

why do you gotta?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd just like to know if preflop is your standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]


id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds (granted not much better since i will sometimes have to call 4 bets total, while on the button i will less often have to call 3 total)

[Justin A]

Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

[aba20]

Because your expected value of calling is &gt; than the expected value of folding. So you are right you can fold if you hate money.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. This is a horribly played hand. Fold preflop, turn ok, river you gotta call here with the fourth nuts, getting over 16-1.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think i rarely play a hand "horribly" and if i do i wouldnt bother posting it because i know its horrible. i misplay plenty but they are usually not horrible. that said, maybe you should be more open minded

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

[/ QUOTE ]


the title is not "worst played hand ever" fyi

it is worse hand ever since i called 4 bets preflop and 4 on the flop only to find out my hand is no good

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Because your expected value of calling is &gt; than the expected value of folding. So you are right you can fold if you hate money.

[/ QUOTE ]


what do i beat

[wheelz]

i would've done hand ranges, but since you threw out "you can fold if you hate money" i think the burden is on you now.

[aba20]

I agree you although I have never played with you I am sure you are a very solid player from your previous posts. You know you made some mistakes in this hand. I am just pointing them out to you since you posted this hand. I also think the biggest on is preflop.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree you although I have never played with you I am sure you are a very solid player from your previous posts. You know you made some mistakes in this hand. I am just pointing them out to you since you posted this hand. I also think the biggest on is preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont think i made any mistakes. preflop is borderline though J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif happens to be my favorite hand. i probably wouldve made the call anyway though

[aba20]

Can you explain preflop to me (no sarcasm). I really don't understand how this can be a call. You are up against two very solid opponents.

[Zele]

[ QUOTE ]
what do i beat

[/ QUOTE ]

T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a drunk, or a misclick. Still, seems like a very tough but good fold.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]

id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this logic works so good because it looks at pot odds and position but ignores information about the strength of hands you are against.

/mc

[wheelz]

fine, i'll do hand ranges.

CO has A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 combos, they beat you. maybe he'd bet the turn with QT actually... but no worse hands other than a misclick play like this really.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain preflop to me (no sarcasm). I really don't understand how this can be a call. You are up against two very solid opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]


they are not very solid. i had no specific read on the CO, but i had one on MP. he is my friend's friend from school that taught him to play a few years ago. i occasionally see him at these games. im assuming hes using this screenname again because he made a rakeback account. anyway he plays pretty dumb. he plays kinda tight (i actually think he is around 41/19 come to think of it) but he autobets draws headsup, he will pump his draws, he tries some dumb FPS plays (as evidenced by him having top set this hand), etc

this would be a lot better call against two bad players. as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

[/ QUOTE ]


the title is not "worst played hand ever" fyi

it is worse hand ever since i called 4 bets preflop and 4 on the flop only to find out my hand is no good

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that. It was just the process of me reading the title and wondering what hand would deserve that, then I read the hand and just started laughing.

[aba20]

I think ATs is much more likely than QTs. Anyways there still has to be some bluffing %. I admit that it is small but bluffs, misclicks, and misreading the board does happen often enough to merit a call in my opinion.

[Zele]

Misclicks and misreading yes, but in a pot this well protected only a maniac will bluff, and a maniac wouldn't have checked through the turn.

[wheelz]

duh, ATs. yeah QTs isn't too likely, but i guess it's possible. definitely more likely than a misclick. a TAG bluffs here never, i don't know that hoping he misclicks 6% of the time on the river is profitable.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
fine, i'll do hand ranges.

CO has A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. 2 combos, they beat you. maybe he'd bet the turn with QT actually... but no worse hands other than a misclick play like this really.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think KTd is remotely possible, as it K8d. he mightve decided that his K was no good and taken his free card. as i said, unlikely. ATd is also possible btw, as is A8d

i was not going to say this until the thread was dying, but i did not bet-fold. i bet because i was 10-tabling at that instant and it just came naturally. i felt like an idiot for betting, and i couldnt bring myself to folding. at the time i thought i shouldve check-called. when i looked at the hand again today i thought that maybe bet-folding would be better, and i posted it as if thats what i did

[aba20]

Well since everyone seems to disagree with me I admit that there is a chance I am wrong but I feel like the pot size merits a call. Also what about meta game implications. I play on prima where I play 1000's of hands against the same opponents and I would not want them knowing I was folding in this situation.

PS is your 2+2 hand the same as on prima wheelz?

[irishpint]

i call the river raise even if i 'knew' i was beat. pot is grande and we have a very good hand. for peace of mind, i'd have to know.

[B Dids]

There's just no way the CO plays anything but a better flush this way.

I fold this preflop and don't feel bad about it, but you rule and I don't, so rock on. I do feel like the reason you had to fold on the river is one of the reasons why the world doesn't end if you lay this down preflop.

[wheelz]

+21, yeah.

[Subfallen]

Fold is expert, but I wouldn't mind checking the river and seeing if it comes back 1 or 2 bets.

[wheelz]

yeah i like bet-fold better, just because i think you can fold to a raise. maybe he did get scared on the turn or misclicked or something... and i think MP is more likely to call your river stab after a checked through turn than overcall after the flush hits. he's clearly got some piece of this.

actually probably pretty close either way.

[Spicymoose]

I actually don't think this is very bad at all. Preflop call is a bit loose, but may be good anyway. If not, it is only slightly -EV, and I don't think people should get caught up over it. The rest of the hand seems pretty straightfoward to me. The only adjustment I think you could possibly make is maybe betting the flop. It seems this might disguise your hand, so that things could play out differently. Having to play the flop as you did (and will normally have to do), makes your hand blatantly obvious to your opponents. One of the goals of poker is to make your opponents play differently from how they would if they knew your cards, so I think a flop bet disguises your hand somewhat well, while not being all that -EV on the current street.

[Michael Davis]

"id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds (granted not much better since i will sometimes have to call 4 bets total, while on the button i will less often have to call 3 total)"

Maybe you're right that position and pot odds cancel out, but I doubt it here, especially since you're right, that you will be facing a cap more often.

Anyways, I really hesitate to post this, because I can't imagine you overlooked such a crucial piece of information, but the fact that a threebet is much stronger than an openraise makes this a pretty clear preflop fold, IMO. Even guys with 22 PFR aren't getting out of hand with threebetting, es pecially when we're not even dealing with a button, small blind situation.

-Michael

[TStoneMBD]

i really dont like the preflop call but i agree that its reasonable to call 2 after a light raiser and a coldcaller when in position. that is a much different situation however because you are not liable to facing a cap. by calling 2 in the BB youre basically asking a laggy opponent to cap it up for you so that he can split your value with the other player.

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

[Danenania]

I would fold PF for reasons that have been stated but I like your postflop play.

[livinitup0]

[ QUOTE ]
i call the river raise even if i 'knew' i was beat. pot is grande and we have a very good hand. for peace of mind, i'd have to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly...why put so much money in the pot just to make a bad bet/fold at the end. If you're sure, then at most check/call... its the same 1 bet. I just think this is one of those wasted "expert folds" that yes, make us feel like experts most of the time, yet retarded when they show overplayed trips even once in 10 times.

2 or 3 of these in a night and I'd feel like pulling my hair out.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think it goes check bet raise to me that often. that is the only real reason to check. by bet-folding, i am folding the best hand almost never so im not giving up much. but more often than that he capped the flop with a pair and checked the turn to avoid being checkraised. i see players with middle pair, or in this case maybe K9s (not diamonds) or QQ, and i might get some value from betting


[ QUOTE ]
saving bets is in your genes

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif happens to be my favorite hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

omg we have so much in common. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold PF for reasons that have been stated but I like your postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

if:
1. CO raised, button 3-bet (same players)
2. 50/20 raised in MP, 60/25 3-bet in the CO

would the call be ok?

[wheelz]

i don't think you can call checking behind on the turn with a set overplaying it.

[Danenania]

Hmm, honestly I'm not sure. I think they are better situations because there is less danger of facing an overpair but also somewhat worse because it will be capped more often behind you. I like the second scenario better because even though the PFR of the donks isn't much higher they have much worse hands on average than the tags since they will randomly be raising junk when bored. Also your implied odds will be much better since they're so likely to spew postflop.

So I think my SOP would be to fold in 1.) and call in 2.) but I could be convinced to do otherwise if someone makes a good case.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, honestly I'm not sure. I think they are better situations because there is less danger of facing an overpair but also somewhat worse because it will be capped more often behind you. I like the second scenario better because even though the PFR of the donks isn't much higher they have much worse hands on average than the tags since they will randomly be raising junk when bored. Also your implied odds will be much better since they're so likely to spew postflop.

So I think my SOP would be to fold in 1.) and call in 2.) but I could be convinced to do otherwise if someone makes a good case.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'd definitely call in both cases btw

[Danenania]

What's your calling range in situation 1?

[Drontier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

[/ QUOTE ]umm how about no. no player is raising here ever because they think you have a decent sized flush and expect you to fold even 1% of the time. and by josh's line, this flush has got to be at least K high or Q high right? (hard to imagine him cold calling 2 cold pf with J9s or JTs)

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

[/ QUOTE ]umm how about no. no player is raising here ever because they think you have a decent sized flush and expect you to fold even 1% of the time. and by josh's line, this flush has got to be at least K high or Q high right? (hard to imagine him cold calling 2 cold pf with J9s or JTs)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it happens even remotely often. I am just saying that a thinking player could place him on a non nut (Q high or K high) flush somewhat easily. That player would also know that Josh would know his hand looks like a flush draw, so that his raise would look like the nut flush draw. I am not saying this happens too often, and I am probably getting too deep into the levels of thinking. I just thought it was interesting that if the game were really on that level, river raiser could be raising with a worse hand in hopes of getting Josh to fold, yet collect value from the other opponent.

Given the hand almost always, I think Josh is beat almost always, and a fold isn't bad.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that situation is similar to this one at all. I think that this call is really bad.

[Jeff W]

I would check and make a crying call on river. When the turn is checked through and a diamond comes on the river, I have a hard time putting CO on anything except for a better flush. When you got raised on the river, you made a good fold.

Pre flop call is probably okay, you're getting close to 7.67:2 on a call best case and 9.67:3 worst case with an equity of ~25% on average.

[wheelz]

why do you think check/call is better than bet/fold though? i'm pretty sure he has a better flush but i'm not check/folding...

[ddubois]

Anyone remember the Fur Coat Dilemma?

[TStoneMBD]

you need 8:2 to make a preflop call with 25% equity and thats not even the best scenario. youre in a reverse implied odd situation because youre out of position postflop trapped between the 3bettor and the openraiser not to mention youre playing dominated cards.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
you need 8:2 to make a preflop call with 25% equity and thats not even the best scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come up with the 8:2 figure?

[TStoneMBD]

sorry jeff.... my bad 6:2

[me454555]

On the river you're getting 16:1 that your opponent is a moron. With stats like 35/22, I think he's a moron more than once in 17 times. Against a sane player this fold is fine b/c the only hand he could have is a better hand but against this guy? you can't make a fold like that. Is is possible he's an idiot and plays AK like this? maybe KJ like this? How bout JJ or KK? He doesn't have to do this often for this to be the correct.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
On the river you're getting 16:1 that your opponent is a moron. With stats like 35/22, I think he's a moron more than once in 17 times. Against a sane player this fold is fine b/c the only hand he could have is a better hand but against this guy? you can't make a fold like that. Is is possible he's an idiot and plays AK like this? maybe KJ like this? How bout JJ or KK? He doesn't have to do this often for this to be the correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.

Rob

[ddubois]

Well, you need to be good like 5% of the time for the call to be EV.

Of the hundred times he raises the river, could it not be that:
1) One time he will have misclicked
2) One time he will have decided to get cute preflop with 8d9d
3) One time he was on tilt
4) One time he decided to play 66 strangely
5) One time he read a Barron article and made a hopeless bluff with AK
?

Well, whatever, even if I am never good enough to make that fold, I won't ever feel bad about it.

[kahntrutahn]

¿Who are you, and why are you playing so many hands against me?

[kahntrutahn]

He is a solid player... but he is easy to knock off a hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways, I really hesitate to post this, because I can't imagine you overlooked such a crucial piece of information, but the fact that a threebet is much stronger than an openraise makes this a pretty clear preflop fold, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear.

/mc

[Victor]

fwiw i would never ever consider even thinking about folding here. lemme check my winrate again.....

[Michael Davis]

"The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear."

Sorry, I apologize for ripping off your expert advice. I am also sorry but not apologetic that you are a huge douchebag.

-Michael

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
"The post where I tried to make this same point must have been really unclear."

Sorry, I apologize for ripping off your expert advice. I am also sorry but not apologetic that you are a huge douchebag.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Apology accepted.

/mc

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw i would never ever consider even thinking about folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either. Pot is biiiig and i've seen LAGy TAGs do weird stuff so taht i'm no 95% certain my flush is no good.

Surf

[joseki]

[ QUOTE ]
as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but are you serious? 'favorite' defined as illogical emotional attachment?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense, but are you serious? 'favorite' defined as illogical emotional attachment?

[/ QUOTE ]

I now know of four people for which J9s is their favorite hand.

[Danenania]

It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[sthief09]

i have a new least favorite hand

[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;/3

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;/3

[/ QUOTE ]


wow is that the first ANTI-HEART ever given by anyone ever or am i out of the loop?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of this post, I talked to Pat about that issue. You can look forward to a new version of PokerTracker *NOW WITH SUITS* sometime in the near future. Unfortunately, it may cost $60.

[/ QUOTE ]


i just remembered another big J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot. it was 15/30 back in February and the final pot was $1400 and involved me pumping the turn with an oesfd for fun and a guy with 42d rivering trip twos and dragging the pot. in other words, i definitely wont be downloading any program that shows me how much ive lost with that hand

yup, definitely new least favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;/3

[/ QUOTE ]


wow is that the first ANTI-HEART ever given by anyone ever or am i out of the loop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I used it for the first time on AIM with shant without prior knowledge of it a few months ago. Of course it's possible it arose before that but I'm not aware of it. It has trickled onto the board recently.

[PokerBob]

why did you call preflop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
why did you call preflop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
ITS HIS FAVORITE HAND.

you are anti-fun, or what?

[ QUOTE ]
It's mine too but in /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine too /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying he's an idiot all the time, just 5% of the time. He doesn't even need to be a complete idiot for him to do this, maybe he just caught a case of FPS or something. We're all human and we all make mistakes and do weird things. I think its possible he does that once in 16 tries

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think autoclassifying a 35/22 player as an idiot is good poker at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying he's an idiot all the time, just 5% of the time. He doesn't even need to be a complete idiot for him to do this, maybe he just caught a case of FPS or something. We're all human and we all make mistakes and do weird things. I think its possible he does that once in 16 tries

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are assuming that a non idiot will never raise this turn with a hand that you beat, then the 5% number for how often he need to be an idiot to call the river is wrong. He need to be an idiot quite a bit more than that, as even idiots will have you beat some of the time.

[protocol]

[ QUOTE ]
what do i beat

[/ QUOTE ]

I find myself saying this a lot on the river when facing a raise, yet I usually call anyways, especially when the pot is this big. Pretty often I get shown a hand that I never would have predicted.

These semi-TAG's make a lot of weird plays. He could easily have a badly played set. I think your river fold is horrible.

[fyodor]

I finally opened this thread thinking it would be good for a laugh. It was.

If you think calling pf is comparable to calling a light raise and cc on the button, then you don't think much of these 2 opponents - esp. CO. Given that, I don't see how you cannot call the river raise. I was happy to read later in the thread that you did.

I hate the pf call.
I hate the river fold.
I hate "favourite hands" (other than AA)

No &lt;/3 here /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[tolbiny]

I def let these ones go preflop, but thats me, i can see talking myself into them. But i don't like the prospect of flopping a draw and having to pay several bets thanks to the TAGs in there.
Flop and turn are fairly standard. The river looks really bad and against his probable range its a good fold. if he had taken a bad beet at some point recently or had shown himself to be overly tricky with a set i would use that as an excuse to call.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think calling pf is comparable to calling a light raise and cc on the button, then you don't think much of these 2 opponents - esp. CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. This is the worst part of the hand in my opinion, not necessarily the call but the thinking behind it.

/mc

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

No &lt;/3 here /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



HAHAHAHA YOU IDIOT YOU JUST GAVE ME &lt;3&lt;3&lt;3&lt;3 HAHAHAA BY SAYING THAT NO ANTI HEART YOU GAVE M E HEART HAHAHAHA ALOLOLAHAHAHAHAHA

but yes i know this call pf sucks and it is even worse than i thought it was when i first posted

surf please lock this thread

[fyodor]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif I thought the / through the heart was an arrow. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw i would never ever consider even thinking about folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me either. Pot is biiiig and i've seen LAGy TAGs do weird stuff so taht i'm no 95% certain my flush is no good.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding for these reasons either.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]

this would be a lot better call against two bad players. as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Having a favorite hand is -EV.

[wheelz]

especially if your favorite hand is 35s.... ugh /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. This is a horribly played hand. Fold preflop, turn ok, river you gotta call here with the fourth nuts, getting over 16-1.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like the sixth nuts to me.

Anyway we beat exactly 8 of 28 possible opposing flushes.

[aba20]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like the sixth nuts to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

your right straight flushes get me everytime.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like the sixth nuts to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

your right straight flushes get me everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Me Too:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.50 BB

Results below:
Hero has J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (full house, jacks full of nines).
UTG has T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (straight flush, king high).
Outcome: UTG wins 23.50 BB.

[Alobar]

I didnt read all the replies, cuz im lazy, sorry /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I fold PF, I think calling a light raise and cold call OTB is much different than calling 2 cold vs a 3 bet OOP with potential action still to come.

The river fold is prolly one of the reaosn you're way better than me, cuz no way I would fold this. And dont ask me to come up with some hands you beat that make sense, cuz I cant do it, the pot is huge and im a calling station. In my head its a good fold tho, so gj

[MAxx]

87s, T8s, JJ, (are a few albeit played wildly), and bluffs

doesnt that help you get to 5%?

[TStoneMBD]

&lt;/3 has been around for centuries. &lt;3 used to be used on irc several years ago when i was an irc nerd and people started using &lt;/3 way back then.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
87s, T8s, JJ, (are a few albeit played wildly), and bluffs

doesnt that help you get to 5%?

[/ QUOTE ]

33 is also a possibility that nobody has mentioned

[wheelz]

a TAG raising and capping the flop with 33? come on

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
&lt;/3 has been around for centuries. &lt;3 used to be used on irc several years ago when i was an irc nerd and people started using &lt;/3 way back then.

[/ QUOTE ]


are you suggesting that &lt;/3 is not in fact an anti-heart and that when jason_t attempted to anti-heart me he provided me with a pure heart? is that what youre saying?

[B Dids]

I know that &lt;/3 as jason_t uses it is clearly "broken heart" and he is TOTALLY anti-hearting you.

I think all these people wanting to call the river in this thread are crazy and that the guy had AdQd so damn often that you should be happy folding.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that &lt;/3 as jason_t uses it is clearly "broken heart" and he is TOTALLY anti-hearting you.

I think all these people wanting to call the river in this thread are crazy and that the guy had AdQd so damn often that you should be happy folding.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think anyone thats still posting in this thread about poker and not hearts, anti-hearts, and broken hearts, is crazy

that includes you dids /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[B Dids]

&lt;/3

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't think it helps that my favorite hands happen to be unsuited wheel cards. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think it helps that my favorite hands happen to be unsuited wheel cards. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif