($33): All-in with a caller, AK out of position call/raise/push?

[xJMPx]

No reads on the caller.

What’s my best line here?

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 2 - 9 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))

Chip Counts:
Button: 585 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 740 Chips</font>
BB: 660 Chips
UTG: 85 Chips
UTG+1: 865 Chips
MP1: 1745 Chips
MP2: 770 Chips
MP3: 1605 Chips
CO: 945 Chips

Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Blinds are 15/30

PreFlop
UTG is All-In, <font color="blue">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="green">CO Calls</font>, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
Hero ????

[jwsly1]

Good questions. With no reads on the caller I would probably make the assumption he had an OK hand and was trying to go one-on-one with the bettor. I would normally re-raise a decent amount (like an additional $150).

If I had position on the caller I would probably call, but since you won't have position I would force him to make a decision now. If he went all-in after that you would probably assume he had a pocket pair and decide if you want to take the coin flip. More likely I would assume he had Ax.

I will be interested to see what others say.

GL

[pineapple888]

Insta-push for me.

[wiggs73]

The 2 obvious lines are pushing, which isn't a bad option IMO, and calling. I think there's a decent enough chance that if you just call, you can check it down if you don't hit because people love to check down hands that they shouldn't at this level just because someone is all-in.

I think both of these lines are alright. One line that I'm wondering about would be to re-raise a decent about, like to t200, and then push any flop. I think I like this because I'm thinking that CO folds enough so that even if UTG wins, you still break even (from the additional chips CO put in PF).

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
One line that I'm wondering about would be to re-raise a decent about, like to t200, and then push any flop. I think I like this because I'm thinking that CO folds enough so that even if UTG wins, you still break even (from the additional chips CO put in PF).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line, would be interested in hearing others comments on it...

[pokerponcho]

I'd actually fold. AK is not a good three-way hand. There aren't many scenarios where you're a significant favorite and you're risking potentially all your chips!

Personally, I think good tournament theory dictates a fold.

I like to push here...i dont like the fold as the all-in is likely beaten or at best a coin flip im guessing...and the caller probably wants him heads up...a nice reraise would do nice here and then probably push if he calls...that's my two cents

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd actually fold. AK is not a good three-way hand. There aren't many scenarios where you're a significant favorite and you're risking potentially all your chips!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree here. UTG range is huge here, so often when you see someone crippled this early they will push with any two. As for the caller's range, it is very wide as well, he is just calling slightly less than a 3xBB raise. AK is way ahead of any non-pair here, and only slightly behind almost all pocket pairs.

Also, AK is not good three-way? AK is a drawing hand and a very powerfull one and we are essentially going to be 2-handed anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think good tournament theory dictates a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this?

[TWINUNO]

It all depends on what kind fo line you take. I would def repop with position and esp OOP. A raise of 200 here would be nice, UTGs range is huge, and this would be a hand you would like to get heads up with. If you call you could also have BB comming in as well weakening the strength of your hand. If the caller wanted to get HU he would have reraised here, unless he had a monster.

[pokerponcho]

I think I'm mistaken here and I'm changing my answer to push. I thought the all-in was greater.

You build a significant side-pot with one of the best heads racing hands in hold'em. My thinking only applies really if it's a three-way all-in where you are all about equal in chips, then AK is somewhat suicidal.

Folding would be bad. I'd just go all-in to nullify positional disadvantage, build a bigger pot with a good hand, and eliminate the field if the other guy wants to drop.

[xJMPx]

Thanks for the comments. Everyone is advocating at least a re-raise to around the t200 mark, if not a push. I pushed and the original caller did what I expected. However, the BB surprised me!

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 2 - 9 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))

Chip Counts:
Button: 585 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 740 Chips</font>
BB: 660 Chips
UTG: 85 Chips
UTG+1: 865 Chips
MP1: 1745 Chips
MP2: 770 Chips
MP3: 1605 Chips
CO: 945 Chips

Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Blinds are 15/30

PreFlop
UTG is All-In, <font color="blue">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="blue">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="green">CO Calls</font>, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
Hero is All-In, BB is All-In, <font color="blue">CO folds</font>

(3 players) FLOP: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( Pot Size: 1570 Chips )


(3 players) TURN: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ( Pot Size: 1570 Chips )


(3 players) RIVER: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ( Pot Size: 1570 Chips )


Final Pot:1570 Chips

Results:
UTG shows:Ks4s,two pairs, kings and tens
SB shows:KdAh,two pairs, kings and tens
BB shows:JcQc,a straight, nine to king

I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand. I'd basically ignore the short stack's 85 chips, assume someone fromlate position opened with a standard raise and act accordingly (probably re-raise, and these stack sizes might indicate a push). I wonder how, and why, your answer to this problem would change if there was no short stack in the pot from UTG.

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few people have suggested the re-raise to something like t200, while most have said that they also like a push here.

I'm in the SB here, so I'll be out of position for the rest of the hand so pushing can eliminate this and most likely isolate me with the original All-in giving my AK a better chance of winning.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few people have suggested the re-raise to something like t200, while most have said that they also like a push here.

I'm in the SB here, so I'll be out of position for the rest of the hand so pushing can eliminate this and most likely isolate me with the original All-in giving my AK a better chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

BB was a total donk, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few people have suggested the re-raise to something like t200, while most have said that they also like a push here.

I'm in the SB here, so I'll be out of position for the rest of the hand so pushing can eliminate this and most likely isolate me with the original All-in giving my AK a better chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess what I'm most curious about is how the short stack all-in factors into the decision. If his chips make it such that a reraise sufficient to do its job would commit me, then I see an all-in.

Or, are most people saying they would push with AKo whenever someone in middle or late position comes it for 3xBB (given these stack sizes and blinds).

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few people have suggested the re-raise to something like t200, while most have said that they also like a push here.

I'm in the SB here, so I'll be out of position for the rest of the hand so pushing can eliminate this and most likely isolate me with the original All-in giving my AK a better chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess what I'm most curious about is how the short stack all-in factors into the decision. If his chips make it such that a reraise sufficient to do its job would commit me, then I see an all-in.

Or, are most people saying they would push with AKo whenever someone in middle or late position comes it for 3xBB (given these stack sizes and blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

It all depends, I'd make a decision at the table in the example you give, depending on lots of factors -- maybe raise, maybe push, maybe call.

For OP's situation, there's already too much in the middle for me to do anything but push.

I like your play. It was just a gross outcome. The BB is a [censored] in every possible way. Tough break.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few people have suggested the re-raise to something like t200, while most have said that they also like a push here.

I'm in the SB here, so I'll be out of position for the rest of the hand so pushing can eliminate this and most likely isolate me with the original All-in giving my AK a better chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess what I'm most curious about is how the short stack all-in factors into the decision. If his chips make it such that a reraise sufficient to do its job would commit me, then I see an all-in.

Or, are most people saying they would push with AKo whenever someone in middle or late position comes it for 3xBB (given these stack sizes and blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

It all depends, I'd make a decision at the table in the example you give, depending on lots of factors -- maybe raise, maybe push, maybe call.

For OP's situation, there's already too much in the middle for me to do anything but push.

[/ QUOTE ]So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]


For OP's situation, there's already too much in the middle for me to do anything but push.

[/ QUOTE ]So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sums it up.

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I ask myself when deciding whether to raise some standard amount, or just push.

When do I open push this to pick up the blinds? So, here I have t740 in chips so I would be looking to pick up the blinds at 50/100 blind level (&lt;10xBB). In other words, to me pushing with AK to pick t150 is worth it. In this case, there is t170 in the pot so a push is worth it here.

Is this a reasonable approach?

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I ask myself when deciding whether to raise some standard amount, or just push.

When do I open push this to pick up the blinds? So, here I have t740 in chips so I would be looking to pick up the blinds at 50/100 blind level (&lt;10xBB). In other words, to me pushing with AK to pick t150 is worth it. In this case, there is t170 in the pot so a push is worth it here.

Is this a reasonable approach?

[/ QUOTE ]

That, too, sums it up. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


For OP's situation, there's already too much in the middle for me to do anything but push.

[/ QUOTE ]So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sums it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am concentrating on my over-plays. Pushing AK over an ~3x UTG opener and a LP caller, both with assumedly reasonable ranges, seems like exactly the play I am trying to discipline myself out of.

In looking at my over-plays, I knew I ran the risk of talking myself out of +EV situations.

I like the push in the OP hand. I don't like a push in zabt scenario. Am I costing myself +EV?

[ravensfan]

How's this for an alternate line:
Can you slow play and just smooth call?
Normally it's suicide to slowplay AK, but since the ranges are so wide and a bet on the flop will look like a steal, would it be reasonable to slowplay this and bet out when you hit the flop? Might try to make it look like you're stealing and stack someone with no risk? I could see a mid pocket pair calling you down thinking you're on a bluff when you push, either preflop or on the flop.

[JupiterUWG]

push instantly, what is CO flat calling with here? I also dont agree with the rationale that AK is "not a good 3-way hand" having anything to do with it...if you push and get called, the side pot is of much greater consequence than the main pot meaning youre not playing a 3 way hand really

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I ask myself when deciding whether to raise some standard amount, or just push.

When do I open push this to pick up the blinds? So, here I have t740 in chips so I would be looking to pick up the blinds at 50/100 blind level (&lt;10xBB). In other words, to me pushing with AK to pick t150 is worth it. In this case, there is t170 in the pot so a push is worth it here.

Is this a reasonable approach?

[/ QUOTE ]So, with 1000 or fewer chips in your stack and 150 or more in the pot, you will raise all-in or ot at all? Sort of a 15% rule?

I'm not sure this works because not all pot chips are equal: some have been voluntarily entered and some have been forced. And, at lower blinds it will take less of your stack to make a sufficiently sized re-raise.

But, maybe this just shifts your pushing range rather than mean that you will (non all-in) raise sometimes.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
How's this for an alternate line:
Can you slow play and just smooth call?
Normally it's suicide to slowplay AK, but since the ranges are so wide and a bet on the flop will look like a steal, would it be reasonable to slowplay this and bet out when you hit the flop? Might try to make it look like you're stealing and stack someone with no risk? I could see a mid pocket pair calling you down thinking you're on a bluff when you push, either preflop or on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see the point, since I think it would be pretty rare for a mid-PP to call with an A or K on the board.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


For OP's situation, there's already too much in the middle for me to do anything but push.

[/ QUOTE ]So, it's not that someone is already all-in, but rather that there are enough chips in the pot that an all-in is called for? So, you would have pushed even if UTG had put 85 of his 800 chips in the pot and someone had already called? That seems reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sums it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am concentrating on my over-plays. Pushing AK over an ~3x UTG opener and a LP caller, both with assumedly reasonable ranges, seems like exactly the play I am trying to discipline myself out of.

In looking at my over-plays, I knew I ran the risk of talking myself out of +EV situations.

I like the push in the OP hand. I don't like a push in zabt scenario. Am I costing myself +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's less appealing in the zabt scenario since the EP player still has more chips left. If you had a read that he was super-solid, maybe you could just call behind. At the 33s, absent any reads, I'm pushing.

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
So, with 1000 or fewer chips in your stack and 150 or more in the pot, you will raise all-in or ot at all? Sort of a 15% rule?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, actually a 10xBB rule.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure this works because not all pot chips are equal: some have been voluntarily entered and some have been forced. And, at lower blinds it will take less of your stack to make a sufficiently sized re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No quite sure what you are saying here. My raises are always based on the size of the pot. If no one has entered the pot, that means my raises are based on blind sizes. As people enter the pot, the pot grows and your raises have to be more to price marginal hands out of calling (or make it a mistake for them to call). So, like I said before, if the pot is large enough that it it is significant to take it down right there, then I push. The blind size doesn't really enter into the consideration much anymore, just the size of the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, with 1000 or fewer chips in your stack and 150 or more in the pot, you will raise all-in or ot at all? Sort of a 15% rule?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, actually a 10xBB rule.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not if I userstand you correctly. Suppose the blinds are 50/100 and there has been one limper. You're on the button with 1300; your stack is greater than 10xBB. But, the pot has more than 15% of your stack.
[ QUOTE ]
So, like I said before, if the pot is large enough that it is significant to take it down right there, then I push.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a rule of thumb about what makes the pot "significant"?

[xJMPx]

[quote}Not if I userstand you correctly. Suppose the blinds are 50/100 and there has been one limper. You're on the button with 1300; your stack is greater than 10xBB. But, the pot has more than 15% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, misunderstood you the first time. Yea, something like 15%.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have a rule of thumb about what makes the pot "significant"?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was talking about early. I compare what is in the pot to the blind levels I would open push that hand with just to collect the blinds. So, if the the pot has t300 in it, that is equivalent to blinds of 100/200, so I probably just push with something like &lt;t2000 in chips.

Of course, this is very general.