Two Flop Bets w/ Not Much

[shant]

I cross-posted this in Small Stakes so avoid that thread if you want to analyze these hands fresh.

Party 1/2 Full

Assume the reads here are the player in the SB is decent as far as tightness and aggression goes, and the players who limped are slightly looser and average as far as postflop aggression goes.

Hand 1:

Some folds, EP limp, more folds, CO limp, SB completes, I check in the BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 SB)</font>
SB checks, I bet

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Hand 2:

Some folds, MP limp, more folds, SB completes, I check in the BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 SB)</font>

SB checks, I bet

Thoughts?

I make both of those bets, what's more interesting is what happens after your bets.

[Koss]

I like them both. Hand 1 is an obvious value bet with middle pair on a ragged board. Later streets could get tough.

In the 2nd hand I would like some information that MP is not a habitual overcard chaser. A good semi-bluff here. All 10 outs are probably good here, plus the BDFD. I'd bet a ragged flop with a lot less here.

[MrWookie47]

I definitely like the first hand.

The second hand is tough for me. I don't think I value my overcards in this scenario enough (simply because they don't have pretty pictures on them), so consequently, my gut reaction is that you don't have enough of a draw to make your semibluff all that semi (all bluff instead). However, you can arguably give yourself 7 outs here, and you may get some folds. OTOH, on ragged boards like this, though, you'll get more people calling with a couple of overcards. Oh, wait, the same read applies to both hands? I like this one too, then. A reasonably aggressive player would probably bet this flop with just about anything he'd call with. He likely has overcards, but any overcards he'd be excited about holding he would have raised preflop. That leaves MP, and this is a board that's unlikely to have hit him. He may peel w/ an A, but I think you'll fold him or hit something often enough to make this +EV.

Edit: I missed the BDFD. This is an even better semibluff.

[milesdyson]

1: yeah, good bet. what do you do if both players behind you call and the turn card is a, uh, J?

2: i like it. it's short enough that you can win the pot often, and i think betting this flop increases your implied odds on your gutshot (as well as perhaps buying outs and folding better hands).

[bottomset]

both are standard and good bets

[Stealthy]

I actually prefer the 2nd hand to the first! I have played a ton of these 1st hands as most players have. Middle pair/no kicker in a small pot. All too often you end up putting a lot of bets in with a very vulnerable hand. If they could all fold if empty on the flop then yes I fire. However as a large number of $1 $2 players will take one off with even just one over then I will be forced to fire again on the turn when I could be far behind. Hand 1 I will sometimes bet out but also like to check and see, I will fold to an EP bet if CO folds as I don't really want to see an 8 here as it sets up too many re-draws. EP bet, CO call I will take one off for the odds but tread a little carefull if I hit an 8. If it is checked to the CO I will often check-raise him here and try and get it heads up and value bet it the rest of the way. So to sum up, I will only put bets in if I can get it heads up or improve.

Hand 2 I like more. I bet this nearly every time and will fire again on the turn whatever hits hoping to take it down by then. If they are still there on the river and I am still looking at a ten high then I give it up.

[kapw7]

I'm not playing 1/2 full so I might be wrong but I suppose it's a game where ppl tend to call a lot. So I don't like any of them as a standard 100% times play. It would change to correct if one of these conditions were met. 1. Higher limits (5/10 or higher) 2. Less opponents 3. Better reads

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Higher limits (5/10 or higher)

[/ QUOTE ]

From his reads, this table seems to be playing like a higher limit table. the limit is not what's important, but the play.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Less opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 has 2 opponents....doesn't get much less than that. Hand 1 does have 3 opponents, but in that hand we also have a stronger holding after the flop. If the number of players to flop were switched, then I think you would probably be right.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Better reads

[/ QUOTE ]
These reads are not the best. However, we do know that the players are tightish - slightly looseish,and none of them are too aggressive. This will make a turn laydown pretty easy vs aggression UI.

Overall, I like both hands and play them the same regularly against this cast of characters.

:grunch: I like hand 2 more than hand 1 because you are up against less players (2 in hand 2, 3 in hand 1) meaning you are more likely to win the pot with the bet, and your outs are better (less likely to have tainted outs) in hand 2 with overs, inside str, bd flush versus bd str, 2 7's, 3 6's (which can help someone's str draw).

Hand 1 is a value bet.
It gets interesting afterwards.

Hand 2 makes me feel warm inside.

[Blunderfull1]

Hand 1 seems standard to me and I like it.
Hand 2 is harder for me to do, but I love it.

When it comes to 1/2, I feel that you can get people to fold a good amount of time that hand 2 is a good play.

[Maurader1]

Although the bets are sexy, I am usually lost on the turn if I get a caller...fire again or not assuming a blank falls? Sometimes I feel the assumption that the "weak players will fold ui" turns me into over agg maniac on flops such as these...

[ QUOTE ]
I make both of those bets, what's more interesting is what happens after your bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when the first respondent perfectly summarises my thoughts

what was the point of contention here?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I make both of those bets, what's more interesting is what happens after your bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when the first respondent perfectly summarises my thoughts

what was the point of contention here?

[/ QUOTE ]
I made this post because I had been reading a lot of micro threads lately and saw a lot of people advising check/folding the flop in situations like this because the pot was small, etc. I'm glad to see that a lot of people thought they were standard.

[benkath1]

Hand 1 I like. The pot is small enough to discourage chasers and you should pick it up right there. Or get check raised and drop it like it's hot.

Hand 2 I'm not sure. gutshot and ten high bdfd. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

I'll read what the others have to say and hopefully learn something.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I like. The pot is small enough to discourage chasers and you should pick it up right there. Or get check raised and drop it like it's hot.

Hand 2 I'm not sure. gutshot and ten high bdfd. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

I'll read what the others have to say and hopefully learn something.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I think I got something out of this. I guess my concern to everyone who likes hand 2 is, how many of these pots are you taking down?

Maybe I'm just playing in the wrong games, but it seems when I make a value bet similar to this one, someone's there to call me down with bottom pair or A high.

Can I ask about your turn play? what if in hand 2 the turn is something like the 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or J /images/graemlins/heart.gif? Are you betting again? Check/folding if called and missed the river?

Oblviously I'm having trouble winning showdowns and I think my turn play is the start of the problem.

glunchtime

hand 1: herm, 4SB pot. This IS a raggedy flop, so it's worth a shot. We can expect JT &amp; overcards to call. If raised, we probably have to fold. A hand like A7 &amp; K7 will probably call and not raise, so when do we stop value betting--turn? river?

hand 2: definitely. You have some bd outs as well as the overcards. Me likey.

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely like the first hand.

The second hand is tough for me. I don't think I value my overcards in this scenario enough (simply because they don't have pretty pictures on them), so consequently, my gut reaction is that you don't have enough of a draw to make your semibluff all that semi (all bluff instead).

[/ QUOTE ]

what's nice about these cards is that they are probably live. If we get called here, it's also easy to c/f the turn UI.