Maximizing value on the turn [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Sean D

11-21-2005, 02:28 PM

I think the flop is an obvious raise because of all the draw possibilities out, but the turn is where I had a question. Obviously I hit the gin card, but do I raise here and risk losing SB and UTG who are probably still drawing? I thought they might still chase with a Q in their hand, so I decided to raise. But in hindsight it may have been better to go for overcalls. Thoughts?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG folds, CO calls.

River: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

sean c

11-21-2005, 02:31 PM

I am raising the turn with a straight and flush draw on the board.

Also you never know when someone is slow playing a made straight on the flop and will 3-bet you.

MrWookie47

11-21-2005, 02:31 PM

You have no guarantee that they're overcalling that turn, but you'll likely get one more out of the bettor. This hand is fine. I would admonish you about worrying about maximizing your value for quads (they're rare, so it's largely unimportant), but the mere fact that you played them fast brings a warm fuzzy feeling to my heart.

11-21-2005, 02:34 PM

He has virtually the nuts on the turn, only 3 cards can possibly beat him on the river. Why not go for overcalls on the turn? If they are calling that flop, another jack isn't folding everyone else for 1 bet IMO.

Steve

SL__72

11-21-2005, 02:35 PM

You got way more value out of this then the guy who check/called his top set/quads vs. me on the flop and turn yesterday.

soko

11-21-2005, 02:36 PM

I would like the idea of calling the turn if the pot were smaller, doing so gives anyone holding an ace or a queen a reason to call, but here a flush draw will call even if you raise, the pot is big enough to value bet you made the right move.

Buckmulligan

11-21-2005, 02:38 PM

raise turn. yes.

11-21-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but here a flush draw will call even if you raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that assuming these players have a concept of pot odds? I think a lot of drawing fish here are just thinking, "man I'd call it for just 1, 2 is too much though" and fold to the raise.

Koss

11-21-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but here a flush draw will call even if you raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that assuming these players have a concept of pot odds? I think a lot of drawing fish here are just thinking, "man I'd call it for just 1, 2 is too much though" and fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people tend to go the otherway. "I have a flush draw on a paired board. Call 1/2/3/4 bets, it doesn't matter."

11-21-2005, 02:44 PM

Good point, hard to imagine what they could have in this hand though if they all fold the turn! (other than complete crap like most players at party .50/1.00 6max)

jrz1972

11-21-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He has virtually the nuts on the turn, only 3 cards can possibly beat him on the river. Why not go for overcalls on the turn? If they are calling that flop, another jack isn't folding everyone else for 1 bet IMO.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

The next time you make quads on this board, I hope you go for overcalls on are shown AQ at showdown.

Seriously, many strong draws will go ahead and call two bets. And every once in a while somebody will have a made straight or will have turned a boat and would give you unlimited action if you echew a slowplay.

Sometimes going for overcalls will get you one or two more BBs, but the profit you make on the times when somebody else is slowplaying a big hand or when somebody spikes a flush on the river and check-raises you more than compensates.