Lossing at O8 limit, I think I'm too tight, too passive

I've been winning at limit hold'em and worked my way up to 3/6, I'm at about 2BB/100 after 150k hands.

I was reading about players making 6BB/100 at O8. So, I recently started to give the micros a try at O8 and after 4k hands I'm beginning to suspect I'm a losser (although I realize 4K is not that big of a sample).

4K hands VPIP 21%, W$WSF% 22% -2 BB/100 (rake 2.1 BB/100 in my defense lol)

It appears I'm not winning enough pots, I think it's because I'm folding too much and to a lesser extent I'm playing to passive.

Here's a hand that I thought was borderline, wanted to fold, but fighting that urge, I bet the flop for information, didn't get any and then call down.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

You have no possible high-hand there, and are calling down with 2nd nut low. Here you are "hoping" you are good for 1/2 the pot.

You have to fold on that flop, with 4 people in the pot, someone has A2xx for low, and someone has a straight or full house for high.

You should only be playing nut hands, and even if you had a nut low with no high hand, this is still a fold unless you want to get quartered.

[jb9]

I don't know if you are folding too much overall, but in this hand, you definitely needed to fold somewhere.

I would check/fold or check/call the flop.

Betting for information is often a mistake in LO8 because someone with 1/2 the pot (especially nut low) will be less likely to raise as they want to keep 4 or more people in the pot (in case they get quartered). All you are doing is betting their hand for them.

Also, you do not need information on this flop. You know all you need to know: you have no high and the 2nd nut low. You can see the turn for 1 bet and hope for a 2 or /images/graemlins/heart.gif (preferably 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif).

On the turn, I think you have to fold. You have no chance for high, and someone will have A2 often enough to make calling down a mistake.

Don't call raises on the river without the nuts unless you know the raiser is likely bluffing or the pot is huge (but remember to always cut the pot size in 1/2 if you are only playing for 1/2 the pot -- as in this hand).

Hope this helps.

[jthegreat]

What they said. Post more hand examples here (or over at ITH) and we can talk about them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Best way to learn.

Thanks for the replies, I'll track down some hands where I made what I though was a questionable fold for my next post.

[Wolffink]

Hi. What they said.

But in a different way.

You're coming from Holdem where often non-nut hands win. Top pair, good kicker is a betting hand. I believe I see Holdem influence in the hand you posted.

In 08, one way of playing, that is good for a new player (or a trained chimpanzee) is to :

1) Call preflop with A-2, A-3 with some other value such as a 4 or suited Ace, or 4 cards above an 8.

2) Realize how important position is. 9-9-A-J with the A not suited may be playable near the button. UTG, fold it.

3) On the flop, ask yourself if you have the nuts either way. If you don't and there's a bet to you, strongly consider folding especially if there's a number of people in the pot. If there's 6 people in the pot, the nuts are out there. If it's head-to-head it's different. But assume it is a good 08 game with several players involved. Chasing 2nd nut lows is expensive, you should only do it if you have some other value (here it would have been okay to see the turn if another card on the flop was a heart). In the hand you posted, you called way too much (which has been pointed out). New players, who often don't know where they stand, often do this. You have to increase your professional knowledge of 08 as quickly as you can to understand where you are in the hand (although not playing if you don't have the nuts in either direction on the flop might solve this problem in 5 seconds lol)....

Does "play to scoop" sound new to you? If it does, post it on your computer. This seems like an easy rule, but I see people violate it all the time. And "Only draw to the nuts". If the board is paired and has a two flush, you throw away your beautiful painted straight without a 2nd thought. If it's just paired or has a two flush, and you having no nut low, you throw it away (perhaps with a sigh).

4)Don't get stuck in the middle of a raising war with mediocre hands. This is expensive. Again, you should have a very good hand if you stay involved so this won't be a factor.

5) Low Limit 08 is often a very boring game in which a successful strategy is just playing good cards and waiting for the nuts. I recommend playing multiple windows of 08 or 08 and your favorite game, Holdem, to decrease the boredom and allow you to be disciplined and throw away many, many hands.

I don't know if limit 08 is more profitable than holdem--though I've heard that too. I've often had bad days at the limit 08 table. If it's a tight game with less than 50% seeing the flop, they won't exactly be handing you money. Also, I'm uneasy on how to attack/defend blinds in these tight 08 limit games. I'd suggest waiting for a good limit 08 with 60% people seeing the flop.

6) This is most important. Read Ray Zee's 2+2 book on 08. Gergery's and Ribbo's postings on this forum are terrific. Gergery also has a website with some sample 08 hands and strategy. And Steve Badger's Playwinningpoker.com also has articles on 08.

Now, I really enjoy pot limit 08 where you can really take advantage of errors. For me, so far, pot limit 08 is the PROMISED LAND! There's a thread on here that discusses whether one should play limit 08 first before playing pot limit 08. Strange thing is, on many of the sites, there's often a pot limit 08 game, but no limit 08 game.

Good luck.

[Ironman]

fep,

One other thing to consider here.

Position

You are UTG.

You have A 3 (that's ok...not great, but ok)

You have four hearts (which hurts your try for an ace high flush).

It would be horrible for you to limp here UTG and face a raise preflop with this hand.

In Ray Zee's book he talks about how important position is in this game (something I discounted for a long time).

I would seriously consider passing on this hand preflop and look for a better opportunity.

If you have a loose table and want to see a flop...ok, I can live with that, but be sure and fold it right away when you don't see a two.


Dave

[minttea]

Two quick comments no one else has mentioned, regarding your stats.

I think your VPIP is a little high for a new O8 player. You should be playing a little tighter until you get pretty good - I'm still around 16%, which I'm sure is very sub-optimal, but this hand is a good example of why playing hands that are going to make non-nut hands can cost you money if you can't get away from them. I expect your WTSD is probably somewhat higher than it should be, and W$SD is low to match.

Also, I think your W$WSF is a little low, which either means you're folding winners (not likely, given this hand), or you're running bad. So try another 4k hands and see how you do. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks all for the good replies.

I just can't seem to find this kind of specific advice in the books I have.

I'm adding this to my favorites to review a few more times.

[Buzz]

fep - A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif is a tough hand to play from early or mid-position. With four cards in the same suit, it's not much different from a rainbow hand - a tad better, but closer to a rainbow in terms of how it simulates than to
A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

But I think it's a playable starting hand, even from early or mid-position. So anyhow you see the flop, as do five of your opponents. Fine.

The flop is not great for you. You have no decent play for high and should expect that about half the time with eight players dealt hands and six seeing the flop, an opponent will have an ace-deuce. And much of the rest of the time, someone else will have an ace-trey.

At any rate, you get two checks to you and you bet. Fine. If you don't bet, someone behind you probably will. I think it's better to bet this yourself, if you plan to continue. And I think you have to plan to continue. Otherwise, I don't think you can play the hand to begin with.

So you bet the flop (fine) but then you get four callers! Ugh!

The turn is not favorable to you. Double ugh! And now you're probably screwed. You can't bet and if you check and call, you're probably going to face a double big bet on the fourth betting round.

So you check and somebody behind you bets. Triple ugh!

The triple ugh does it! Too much is going wrong here! I think your best play is to fold to the bet on the turn. I don't like that, but unless the river is a deuce, the alternatives seem worse.

The odds are about ten to one against a deuce on the river, and even if you do catch a deuce on the river, you're only playing for half the pot. And without a deuce on the river, it's pure ugly.

I don't think you made a mistake by seeing the flop with the hand, and I don't think you made a mistake by betting the flop. But after that nothing went right! Time to bail after three ughs in a row.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Allow me to correct an error. I wrote [ QUOTE ]
“With four cards in the same suit, it's not much different from a rainbow hand - a tad better, but closer to a rainbow in terms of how it simulates than to

A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.”

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Ah3h5hKh simulates closer to Ah3h5cKs (single suited) than Ah3d5sKc (rainbow). There are 15 distinctly different varieties of A35K, but some of them don’t play much differently than others. Following are simulation results for some of them. These are all for eight non-folding opponents with random hands. 10000 times each:
<font color="white">_</font>
hand........high.....low.....scoop.....total...... .prototype
A35Kd.....444.....929.....823.....2196.....Ah3h5cK c
A35Kd=....379.....980.....677.....2036.....Ah3c5cK h
A35Ks.....306.....1008.....679.....1993.....Ah3h5c Ks
A35Ks”’....298.....986.....650.....1934.....Ah3h5h Kc
A35Ks-....320.....996.....604.....1920.....Ah3s5cKc
A35Ks””...284.....991.....599.....1874.....Ah3h5hK h
A35Ks-”’..284.....1001.....545.....1830.....Ah3c5cKc
A35Ks=...248.....1024.....508.....1780.....Ah3s5sK c
A35Kn.....218.....1027.....415.....1660.....Ah3d5s Kc

As you can see, the four heart hand simulates more like a two heart hand than a rainbow.

With apologies for my error,

Buzz

Thanks for the sim Buz. I'm taking from your description you set the sim to have all the players allways go to showdown. I'm not sure what the conclusions would be as far is whether the hand is +EV or not. My gut is that it is but not by much. But what do I know? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Jim Morgan]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's better to bet this yourself, if you plan to continue. And I think you have to plan to continue. Otherwise, I don't think you can play the hand to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

With good position, I might try betting this, but in poor position I just don't see it. Even calling a single bet seems pretty weak to me. I am facting another A3 or an A2 more often than not and my high is a joke.

It seems like my profit is pretty small for the times where my A3 is good for half or a quarter. When I am drawing dead to a deuce (and maybe still only for a quarter) I lose a lot of chips. Even if A2 is only out there one-third of the time, it seems like a bad move in a pot that wasn't raised preflop (and if it was, there is s much stronger likelihood of an opposing A2).

Jim

Isn't this a simple check and fold?

[benwood]

Fep,consider this.You are probably playing more tightly &amp; passively than an experienced Omaha player using optimum strategy,but that is what you should be doing.Until your judgement develops through experience,discretion dictates that you take a cautious viewpoint in call/fold,raise/call,&amp; check/bet decisions.In this example hand,you tried to force yourself to call when your gut feeling told you it was wrong(&amp; it was).You're approaching the game correctly. Just give it some time,&amp; as your judgement improves,you will increase your looseness/aggressiveness naturally &amp; correctly.Good luck. Ben

I am not a huge fan of this hand, especially being from early position. However, most of the time Im probably finding a way to limp in with this hand.

On the flop, I dont mind you leading out at this pot. However, I have found in most cases this a futile attempt to win any money here. With 5 other players in this spot, I doubt your A3 low is any good here. And if it is good, I will be shocked if you arent getting quartered. (assuming you dont get counterfeited by the river) I honestly just check/fold this one down. If you had any shot at high, then I would take a stab at this pot. For example, If you had a A375, then I would lead. However, I would hardly ever check/call down in a spot like this. I think thats a very bad way to play it.

On the turn, you still have your 2nd nut low ... and zippo for high. Nadda. Zero. Cero. Nothing. You are praying just to split. This is a routine fold on the turn.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
With good position, I might try betting this, but in poor position I just don't see it. Even calling a single bet seems pretty weak to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim - I don't see check/calling here at all. If I'm going to play here, I'm going to bet this hand/flop.

Check/folding after this flop would be a more conservative approach and doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I am facing another A3 or an A2 more often than not and my high is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like my profit is pretty small for the times where my A3 is good for half or a quarter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[ QUOTE ]
When I am drawing dead to a deuce (and maybe still only for a quarter) I lose a lot of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. Depends on what happens after you bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if A2 is only out there one-third of the time, it seems like a bad move in a pot that wasn't raised preflop (and if it was, there is s much stronger likelihood of an opposing A2).

[/ QUOTE ]

.... A pre-flop raise doesn't necessarily indicate A2XY in my typical games. How likely depends on who raises.

I think A2XY is out there closer to half the time than a third of the time (which actually makes folding more appealing).

I'll run a sim from after this flop and grab a turkey sandwich while awaiting the results.

O.K. All set.

77...2406....147....total is 2630. Call the e.v. 26.30%. With four opponents, anything above 20% seems like it might be profitable.

I used six opponents with random cards. That's one more than saw this flop. I included an extra hand to account for selectivity before the flop. (You're not exactly facing opponents with random cards after the flop).

Done with that first turkey sandwich. (It was only a half-sandwich). Let me run another sim with eight opponents while I get another snack.

O.K. All set again.

64...1951....82....total is 2107. Call the e.v. 21.07%. This one is closer to 20%, barely better than 20%.

You're right about high being a joke. (The hand only probably will end up winning high a few per cent after this flop).

But the hand isn't <font color="white">_</font>drawing for the second nut low. The hand already <font color="white">_</font>has the second nut low - with a shot at nut low with a five back-up.

So I don't know. Is the hand profitable with this flop when five opponents also see the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a simple check and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see taking the more conservative approach and check/folding. Check/folding doesn't seem terrible to me. But neither does betting - and betting is more fun.

Buzz