JJ top set on a flush board HU

This one sticks out in my mind largely because I put money in when behind and not ahead. Yesterday was a crazy session, I played about 200 hands and then let my buddy take the reins when I went to eat, and he proceeded to spew BB's like it was going out of style. Regardless, here is the hand that I want some feedback on, and tell me what you think about my rationale for the play.


15-30

I raise first in MP with red JJ.

Only the horrible SB calls. Guy is terrible and will not fold a blind and his VP$IP is probably in the 60% range.


Flop

2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gifj /images/graemlins/spade.gif


He checks, I bet, he c'r me.

At this point I am confident that he'll bet the turn, so, I just call thinking that I can get a double bet out of him on the turn, and, if i 3-bet the flop he wont lead the turn. I'm figuring he'll make this play with any pair here, and didn't automatically put him on a flush draw, but I was well aware it was possible for him to make this play with the naked ace.

Turn

9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ughhhh.....

Okay, he bet, and this time I raised.

Several reasons for this raise, one, I wanted to see if he just had a pair or if he had made his flush, and, If i was called I still had 10 ways to win, maybe like 1% of the time he mucks a baby flush, and, I figure I still have the best hand some of the time here....I know I'll get hammered for not three-betting this flop and leading the turn, but, If he doesn't c'r with a flush draw, then this is the correct play IMO because I get an extra BB on the turn as opposed to an extra SB on the flop. And if it's 50-50 whether he makes this play with and pair vs. any draw, it's slightly more +ev to raise this turn....(am i right here?)


He calls the raise after a very long pause.


River doesnt pair board, nothing spectacular.


He checks, i check behind.


Comments on all streets appreciated. This hand felt entirely backwards and awkward. Part of me wants to say 3 bet this flop and bet turn, but then I wonder how I play this hand if i 3-bet the flop and he leads the turn....ugh. I dont know what was correct here.




Tex

[krishanleong]

I don't mind the waiting to raise a non-flush turn. As the flush came in I just call/call raise if you go full.

Krishan

[Fianchetto]

I'll usually play this fast and just 3-bet the flop. A lot of turn cards may kill your action/make you not want to raise.

I don't know about raising on the turn here like you did, you are gonna hate getting 3-bet.

You thought there is a good chance he doesn't have a flush, so you raised the turn, but then check the river? Seems inconsistant.

[tongni]

This hand is very well played. No sarcasm.

Edit: Since everyone seems to think otherwise, I'll explain.

If he has a pair, you want him to charge him to draw to a split. Not raising here is criminal. In fact, if he knows you have a set, he should call and hope to spike a spade to split the pot. I think. I'm pretty tired. Anyways it's close. If you get 3bet on the turn, well, I can lay it down on the river.

[SA125]

Either 3 bet the flop and lead the turn or smooth call the turn.

I've gotten away from raising turns where, if I was re-raised, I'd hate it a lot if I have to call and fold the river UI.

I raise the turn because I figure sometimes he has a pair, a straight draw, or when the poker gods cooperate, a lower set. When he calls the turn, he has a flush almost always, hence my check behind on the river.

[CardSharpCook]

My usual line is to 3bet the flop, call down. Your line is interesting, and pretty good. I wonder if he ever tosses a flush here? He certainly tosses split pot outs. The one problem I have is that by doing this, we don't have him betting into us on the river, which is nice when it pairs or when he has a [censored] one-pair hand.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn because I figure sometimes he has a pair...

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you want him to fold a pair?

id 3-bet the flop, the way this is played id call the turn and bet the river if checked to

It looks like your intent is to raise the turn irregardless of what card comes? Am I correct in saying that?

If this is the case then you will most likely only be reraised by the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif since he will fear that card, given your preflop raise and smooth call of the flop. This is a good thing; it is what you want. If you fill on the river you win an extra bet on the turn in case either the board pairing or his lack of the nut flush scares him into check/call mode. If you raise the turn and do not fill go for the cheap showdown; you paid for it on the turn, might as well use it. I'd say usually this guy has some less-than-premium flush and you will win more by raising the turn when you improve and lose the same amount if you were to just call on both streets.

Note that if you are reraised on the turn he has the nut flush and you will fold the river knowing you are beaten if you do not fill.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like your intent is to raise the turn irregardless of what card comes? Am I correct in saying that?

If this is the case then you will most likely only be reraised by the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif since he will fear that card, given your preflop raise and smooth call of the flop. This is a good thing; it is what you want. If you fill on the river you win an extra bet on the turn in case either the board pairing or his lack of the nut flush scares him into check/call mode. If you raise the turn and do not fill go for the cheap showdown; you paid for it on the turn, might as well use it. I'd say usually this guy has some less-than-premium flush and you will win more by raising the turn when you improve and lose the same amount if you were to just call on both streets.

Note that if you are reraised on the turn he has the nut flush and you will fold the river knowing you are beaten if you do not fill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couple scenerios, Villian may bluff the river while he will fold to the turn raise. Villian may have a non-flush made hand that would bet the river but fold the turn. Getting 3-bet by the nuts sucks. Your analysis is good though. Certainly makes raising the turn seem better than I initially thought.

Krishan

Villain shows down 8 5 with a spade. I think it was the 5, he flopped middle pair and a flush draw.

It is frustrating to me when I play a big hand well, and lose to a donkey who cant tread water for more than 100 hands in a full ring game.

I need Tommy to teach me how to not tilt.


Tex

[CardSharpCook]

huh? He outplayed you on the flop and turn. He got you to raise with 10 outs. Yup. HE'S the donkey. Doesn't matter how good you are PF, if you can't play flops, you are lost.

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want him to fold a pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's drawing for free.

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
This one sticks out in my mind largely because I put money in when behind and not ahead. Yesterday was a crazy session, I played about 200 hands and then let my buddy take the reins when I went to eat, and he proceeded to spew BB's like it was going out of style. Regardless, here is the hand that I want some feedback on, and tell me what you think about my rationale for the play.


15-30

I raise first in MP with red JJ.

Only the horrible SB calls. Guy is terrible and will not fold a blind and his VP$IP is probably in the 60% range.


Flop

2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gifj /images/graemlins/spade.gif


He checks, I bet, he c'r me.

At this point I am confident that he'll bet the turn, so, I just call thinking that I can get a double bet out of him on the turn, and, if i 3-bet the flop he wont lead the turn. I'm figuring he'll make this play with any pair here, and didn't automatically put him on a flush draw, but I was well aware it was possible for him to make this play with the naked ace.

Turn

9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ughhhh.....

Okay, he bet, and this time I raised.

Several reasons for this raise, one, I wanted to see if he just had a pair or if he had made his flush, and, If i was called I still had 10 ways to win, maybe like 1% of the time he mucks a baby flush, and, I figure I still have the best hand some of the time here....I know I'll get hammered for not three-betting this flop and leading the turn, but, If he doesn't c'r with a flush draw, then this is the correct play IMO because I get an extra BB on the turn as opposed to an extra SB on the flop. And if it's 50-50 whether he makes this play with and pair vs. any draw, it's slightly more +ev to raise this turn....(am i right here?)


He calls the raise after a very long pause.


River doesnt pair board, nothing spectacular.


He checks, i check behind.


Comments on all streets appreciated. This hand felt entirely backwards and awkward. Part of me wants to say 3 bet this flop and bet turn, but then I wonder how I play this hand if i 3-bet the flop and he leads the turn....ugh. I dont know what was correct here.




Tex

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Tex, I really like your play here. This is something I do quite frequently but ONLY if I'm up against a good or reasonable player.

Raising the turn and going for a free showdown here is infinitely better than call/call. Even if he does 3 bet you on the turn you still have lots of outs. However you will find that he will rarely have a hand strong enough to reraise you here. You will occasionally see a player fold their small flush provided if you have a good image. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You have to be selective though and in this case I wouldn't even attempt to do this with a complete donkey calling your raise on on sb.

I got outplayed because___? Just because I put money in the pot when I was behind? (but we didnt know that when I raised, did we?)I dont see where I got outplayed here....Can you elaborate a little?


Thanks


Tex

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
but then I wonder how I play this hand if i 3-bet the flop and he leads the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

uh...you call. Unless you think there's a chance he'd fold a small flush to a raise. It makes his turn bet a little stronger if you 3 bet the flop and he still leads into you when the 4th flush card hits.

If you had a high flush card on the flop, wouldn't you have 3 bet it then? That's why he calls the turn when you raised with his small flush. It's more believable that you have a high flush card if you 3 bet the flop, then raise the turn, isn't it?

b

[flawless_victory]

this hand is played fine.
i like every street. i usually threebet the flop and give this guy a chance to jam it w/ the worst of it... also ppl will always put u on a hand w/ big spade, but raising the turn is fine as well.

It's better to put in 2 bets when you have a legit chance at improving to a winner than to put one in on both the turn and river when at the river you cannot improve. If you had improved you win an extra bet if not you still lose two. Well played turn and river.

[pokerponcho]

I think you call a good portion of the time when you have a hand like this or the ace of spades. That way you can induce him to bluff if he doesn't have it and you can wait for the river to pop him the times you do have the ace of spades, or fill up. That's severe punishment as he won't know which is which when.

I see a good argument the raise on the turn though. You have outs if you're called and you get three bets in when you make your hand rather than just two.

The only problem is that there is about 0% chance he'll fold his spade. Are you sure you didn't raise out of frustration?

Just call, if he best the river he's not bluffing after you called the turn so just fold. He has to put you on a flush after you call the turn.

I think this is a bet you can safely save given that he won't fold his spade no matter what.

Anybody else prefer this line?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn because I figure sometimes he has a pair, a straight draw, or when the poker gods cooperate, a lower set. When he calls the turn, he has a flush almost always, hence my check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you think he'd fold a small flush to your turn raise?

did you think he'd 3 bet you w/ a big flush card like K/A/Q?

what is the worst hand that he'd c'r that flop with?

how many cards on the turn cost you action or force you to call off chips (with about 1/4 of the decks worth of equity) to a better hand?

Barron