How long will internet poker last?

[Ralle]

Obviously, poker on the internet is a really big thing these days. Lots of sites, stakes, and tables to choose between, and easy access for us who don't have a casino nearby.

My question is, how long will this last? When someone writes a really good program, that can be run on a regular PC, and that plays better poker than almost all players, then how long will it be before internet poker has totally disappeared?

It could either take the form where people run the program in a separate window, and feeds it continuously with information, and then plays as the program suggests. This, of course, sounds extremely boring, but I'm sure some people will find it rewarding.

A much worse scenario, is when people start using an automatic program, that just plays, and plays without the need for any human interaction. Wouldn't this kill internet poker in no time?

[yct]

If the gaming bill passed, internet poker will be over for players in the US.

[dux]

A much worse scenario, is when people start using an automatic program, that just plays, and plays without the need for any human interaction. Wouldn't this kill internet poker in no time?

I would think that the real money would be not employing these types of bots, but distributing them - and the Sites should be able to find out. Wouldn't there be a lot they could do to stop these robots mimicking a human? Something in the programming that could stop the bot talking to the program? Couldn't they move the location of the buttons randomly, or something to throw of a bot?

I would love to hear one of the site's representatives thoughts on this issue, although I doubt many sites have plans regarding this sort of issue - they are busy enough trying to get players to play at their room, and to make the site safe from real people.

It could either take the form where people run the program in a separate window, and feeds it continuously with information, and then plays as the program suggests. This, of course, sounds extremely boring, but I'm sure some people will find it rewarding.

This is a scary proposition. Does every site have a clause that says you are not allowed to do this?

I mean, I know it's not the same as Poker Tracker, but both sort of help your play. I know it is wrong, but do they have a clause that having a program that gives you advice is against the rules?

[crazy canuck]

Even if someone creates a bot that beats humans, there are plenty of countermeasures that can be taken. There is a discussion about it at RGP. For example, when you set up a yahoo account nowadays it asks you to enter a word that's written by a hand...i.e. AI-s can't/or have a very hard time reading it.

[Rickfish]

It will last indefinitely.

You have described a program that I want to write but I don't know how to capture the incoming data from the poker site. I can think of two ways of doing it a) capture the incoming data directly b) capture the data from the user interface. The problems are that every time the site upgrade their software you could find that the program no longer works. The sites could build in encryption (if they haven't already) that would make (a) impossible. Option (b) seems a more workable proposition but I don't have the knowedge of how to interpret the images that appear on the screen. Even if I could it would be a very complex program. Compared to this writing a AI program to beat humans would be relatively easy.

If I was able to get around the technical problems I would write a program initially to monitor games 24 hours a day and capture relevant data about the way each player plays. Then when I played for real I would have all the other players raising frequencies, minimum starting hand requirements, etc to refer to.

[dink]

When you build the program could I have a copy?

Just to test and tell you if it works, I wouldn't use it for my own personal gain it would be purely scientific research.

TRUST ME
/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[dr_mabuse]

i doubt that any poker-side is using unencrypted protocols between server and client.

thanks and bye
olaf

[Mac]

Rickfish - You can't say it will last indefinitely only because this bot would be very difficult to code. The fact is that there are already third-party software screen scraping packages that have been been used to satisfy your Option B (I believe some have even been referenced in this forum). I believe the more difficult prospect is building a bot that plays well, but that's already been done at university of alberta-canada (this is the harder part of the program, but certainly doable). If I had more free time and a real motivation, I know this would be something I could build. If I were really serious about it, I would probably take on one of my out of work software developer friends as a partner and get busy. But I'm sure there are already bots built that do exactly what you describe...
- MAC

[Rickfish]

My reasons for saying it will last indefinitely are more complex than that. I believe it would be possible for someone to write a program that would read the screen and send back the appropriate mouse clicks. The program to play poker shouldn't be any more difficult than a chess program - probably easier. The difference between a chess program and a poker program is that the poker program has to maintain a large database of players and their strengths and weaknesses - if it is done properly. But even if someone develops these programs it will just be like having a good player at the table and it will not kill internet poker. If everyone starts using the bots then no-one will make any money if the bots are all using the same software. Perhaps playing a table full of bots would be easier than a table full of people.

But I also believe there would be a war betwen poker sites and bot software developers. The poker sites would keep coming up with new methods to foil the bots and the bot developers would keep developing counter-measures. The question is, is it worth it? If I developed my own I would not sell it, I would just run it for myself and no-one would know.

Bots or no bots I believe internet poker will be around for a long time to come - as long as poker is played and the internet exists.

[lefty rosen]

If you just look at the way the sites are mushrooming, and when you figure out it's cheaper to play than live, it can't help but grow..

[joeypoker789]

3 months ago the PokerPulse estimate for ring game pots per 24-hour period was probably at $16M to $18M. Today it is at $26M to $28M per day.

Amazing!!

[Aragorn]

Even if there are bots, it won't stop most people from playing. Most people lose money at poker anyway. Given the rake, if anyone wins, there are likely 2 or 3 consistent losers to feed them.

These are people who like the games, like the action, and will play no matter what.

The games in Vegas are horribly stacked against the player and they keep making them worse. But last time I was there Vegas was more popular than ever.

[mobes]

As I understand it TTH is suppoosed to be good and the caliber of poker play is awful. I beat Mike everytime I tried. Unlike chess there is no correct move in poker, as the answer is always "depends". I think it would be near impossible to have a program play very well.

[Rickfish]

I think that one day someone will write a poker program that plays like an expert. The program that does this will do what good human players do - observe the other players. I think a program will do this much better than me because it will remember everything significant about each player.

[maplepig]

Computer programs excel at "expert system", but still sucks with neural network. Chess is beatable because it's simple enough for an "expert system" to handle. For heads up limit holdem, I can see the same to be done. For ring game limit holdem, it can be done if the table does not know that they are up against a computer. If the table knows that and explores the weakness of the computer system, a full table ring game probably is already hard enough for any "expert system" to handle. even if it can be done, it will be another billion dollar project. For NL games, it's nearly impossible.
Eventually neural network computer will beat human brain for anything human do, but that won't happen in our life time. Since we have enough human to do our job, there aren't a lot money going into researching generic neural network. If some day we decided to go full speed on that, the younger guys at this forum may be able to see it. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
However, to have a program that can beat Party's low limit games, the only challenge is to read the cards, that's for sure.