A couple more $100/200 hands

[LarsVegas]

This time, 4 and 3 handed respectively. My opponent (the same in both hands) seems like the typical good mid/high-limit player so far.

Hand 1:

Villain openraises on the button, small blind folds, I three-bet from the big blind with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif, and he calls.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I bet and he calls.

Turn: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I bet, he raises, I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.

River: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, he bets, I puke a bit and call.

---

Hand 2:

I raise with J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif on the button. Small blind calls, and villain calls from the big blind.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, BB leads out, as he did with the same preflop action on at Q-T-7 twotone flop just one or two orbits ago, I raise, SB folds and BB calls.

Turn: 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. BB bets, I call.

River: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. BB bets, I raise.

lars

[1800GAMBLER]

These are good posts, i like them because of hand 1 it's nice to know it's not just me who gets themselves in those spots. I don't know the best line in that yet, will reply more later.

Hand 2, i don't think there is much difference in raising the turn or the river, as long as you do both from time to time. You could either have flop-pair, overpair or ace high on the turn and river so he can't get away from any pair without wondering about it or possibly being exploitable later.

[Nikla]

Hand 1 is the kind of hand you need to call occasionally but fold the vast majority of the time. I dont think the turn 3-bet is an absolute given either.

Hand 2 is well played. By raising turn, considering that the board just paired you might make him fold an 8 or a 5 which you naturally dont want. By waiting until river chances are he'll be making a "curiousity call" more often with his pair. On the other hand if river is an ace or paint it might freeze him into check-calling, and if he was on a draw and river is real ugly like a blank ace or king he might whiff and check fold.. If its an ugly card for you,it might freeze you up, like the 5h or an 8. You also might lose a bet when river comes down a heart and he check-calls or bet-fold (assuming you raise a heart river). So I guess I agree with gambler that it doesn't really matter if you raise turn or river as long as you do both.

You shouldn't discount the possibility that he has a 3 either. I bet out like this with trips often. Naturally if you get 3-bet on turn you should be much more inclined to call down than if you waited until river and got 3-bet there.
-Nikla

Ugh. AJ. UGH. I think you need to find a fold somewhere on this turn, preferably to the cap unless you want to project a stubborn/agressive image to the table. I dont like that turn/river line at all. He shows you a bluff hardly ever and shows you the nuts or TPTK a lot.


On the second hand, I like your line a lot. Well played.



Tex

[Nikla]

Folding turn is terrible.

why?

[AceHigh]

Hand 1: I don't like the 3-bet, because you have to call the 4-bet with the J /images/graemlins/club.gif. Fold on the river.

Hand 2: looks perfect.

Hey ace,

do you think a turn fold to the cap is terrible?

drawing to j-high flush

Yeah, I was just thinking it looks a whole lot like AxK /images/graemlins/club.gif AxQ /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, and so on and so forth. I'm a little on the tight side, so, I suppose if you cant lay the hand down, maybe play it not so agg ???

[flawless_victory]

hand 1, i like.
i especially agree w/ getting sick b4 u pay off thaqt river, but eff it. im calling.

hand 2, i like your line and prob play the same in a ring game if u raised from EP because raising the turn is gonna get him off alot of hands that u dont want him folding but SH w/ u opening on button there is no effing way he is folding any pair. no chance. he will call down, so i would raise turn.
just calling turn risks him checkcalling river w/ his 8/5 and if the river is the effing Kh are you still gonna raise it?

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
do you think a turn fold to the cap is terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against unknown yes.

[PokerPrince]

Hand 1: I get myself into these spots pretty often and it really sucks. I will tell you from a lot of experience that when you get 4-bet on the turn like this it's real bad for you 95% of the time. Give serious consideration to mucking the river when you don't improve.(I also don't think the turn 3-bet is automatic and think bet/call is a fine line)

Hand 2: Me likes. You get raised you puke a little and call.

[LarsVegas]

I think it's nice this thread picked up, and especially interesting to see all the different opinions on the AJ hand. I guess it's {3bet 50, call 50, fold 0} when I am raised on the turn, {5bet 1, call 90, fold 9) when I am 4-bet and {0, 80, 20} after I check the river. Did I get that right Eric? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Myself, I am torn between 3-betting (and not ALWAYS paying off a 4bet and a riverbet, but very frequently) and a move I use very rarely these days, calling the turn raise and donk betting the river. My hand on the turn here feels too big in this spot to just call the turn raise and have the river checked down behind me pretty often (almost everytime I am ahead I would guess).

Anyway, opponent showed me A-9o for the top two pair, so I was drawing to 12 outs, so in hindsight the turn action wasn't *disasterous* for me, given that I have to put in at least two bets there anyway.

In hand two, I think my opponent actually puked a bit, at least he took a little while before he called, and my hand was good.

lars

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's nice this thread picked up, and especially interesting to see all the different opinions on the AJ hand. I guess it's {3bet 50, call 50, fold 0} when I am raised on the turn, {5bet 1, call 90, fold 9) when I am 4-bet and {0, 80, 20} after I check the river. Did I get that right Eric?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the whole thread, just this paragraph actually, but my initial guess is: no, probably not right.

Look, for these mixed strategies with individual hands to mean anything, they have to be placed in the context of an overall strategy. That is, you have to do the following:

1. look at your entire hand range that you could hold given the action
2. decide what percentage of that range you want to fold, call, and raise, given the size of the pot
3. break out the range according to these percentages
4. mix them around a bit to make your play in each category less clearly define your hand for your opponent


I'm still working out the details of how each of these steps is best accomplished, but anything where you just assert that it's FCR {15, 50, 35} or whatever probably doesn't make much sense.

In game theory, everything needs to be placed into the context of your overall strategy.

I apologize if you did in fact do all this in this thread. If you did, kudos.

good luck.
Eric