AQ RIVER TP. LELAISE OR CALL?

[flawless_victory]

villain is hangtwang.
i just sat, folded my blinds.
this is the first hand ive seen a flop, but we have played together b4. he is a quite aggro pre, but other than that pretty typical... honestly i dont know that much about him.

Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (7.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>,

call or threebt the riv, and who thinks i shouldve gone for the checkraise?

[daryn]

love a 3 bet here, i put him on KQ or QJ. actually i really like a checkraise since you will prob. get a bet from hangtwang if he didn't hit a pair by the end, but i think you actually will end up getting more money by betting in this particular hand

[baronzeus]

id 3bet...its probably a split but i think theres no hand that beats you that he will play like this.

[ggbman]

Given the pervios action, definitly lead the river, and i definitly like a 3 bet here.

[lil feller]

What could have here? AQ, KQ, QJ are certainly possibilities. He might also have AA (unlikely since he'd probably wouldn't slowplay), or 99.

Is he bad enough to call a 3rd bet w/ anything that doesn't beat you? Can you call a cap? I think this really depends on the player, and while you likely have the best hand, I'm not sure how much chance there is a worse hand calls a 3rd bet.

lf

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
or 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not happening

[steveyz]

3-bet.

Not a good place for a check-raise on the river, IMO. Would he always bet a small-medium pocket pair if checked to in that situation? How about AK?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet.

Not a good place for a check-raise on the river, IMO. Would he always bet a small-medium pocket pair if checked to in that situation? How about AK?

[/ QUOTE ]
im just gonna guess and say a hand like 88 bets almost every time, AK almost never bets, and 44 is 50/50.

[flawless_victory]

WTFWTF

Seems like a way behind way ahead situation here, and more times than not way ahead. I like a c'r because he's betting a lot of hands on the river here that he'd call with anyways, so yeah, I like the c'r. Especially given the fact that he three bet and went into call down mode. I think a check on the river would induce a bet from so many hands that if you ran this scenario 1000 times you'd be much happier c'ring than just betting.



Tex

[4thstreetpete]

I like a LELAISE here but only 1 time.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a way behind way ahead situation here,

[/ QUOTE ]
yo tex, we have already made it to the river, so how far ahead or behind we are is irrelevant. the race is over.

I guess that line has been used too many times in a different context for it to be app. here.

EDIT: you're killing everything, try and c'r. if he three bets, be sure to puke on the pot when he shows you quad ducks.

[DeeJ]

My immediate response was 3-bet, but if you look at the hand range he may have - if he's got Q9, or 22/QQ/KK/AA, then he's mostly got you. Will he really raise the river with KQ (or AQ), since you capped preflop? Don't know, but calling the raise starts to look more wise than 3-betting it up.

[elindauer]

Questions: what range of hands will he 3-bet? What is your hand range on the river?

I need the answers to these questions to go much farther, but my guess is that your range is fairly wide and AQ is near the top. I'll also guess that AQ beats lots of hands that he could have reached the river with, so a 3-bet is going to be at least in the mix for this hand. This probably coincides nicely with your intuition and is exactly why you're not sure of the answer... the answer is both.

good luck.
eric

[roy_miami]

I would say he's folding KQ or worse to the 3-bet and capping or calling with KK or better so the only value to 3-betting would be to possibly fold another AQ.

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say he's folding KQ or worse to the 3-bet and capping or calling with KK or better so the only value to 3-betting would be to possibly fold another AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh...yeah, right.

But seriously, if only all your hands were this easy.

3rd, the title of your post can be construed (probably correctly) as a racist insult. Do you really feel the need to muddy up a hand discussion with such a pointless (and not funny) 'joke'.

[sweetjazz]

My inclination at first to lelaise, because lelaising just sounds cool and because you have a strong hand.

But what hands that you beat play this way? If villain had a Q, I think he can only be calling down if he has AQ. Would he try to slowplay to the river with 99 or A2s? Could he have a small PP that he was planning on calling down anyway and now he's trying to push you off JJ/TT on the river?

Are you going to fold to a lelelaise (aka a 4-bet)?

I initially thought 3-betting was best, but unless someone can give a reasonably sized range of hands that villain has that we beat, I think calling is best.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]


3rd, the title of your post can be construed (probably correctly) as a racist insult. Do you really feel the need to muddy up a hand discussion with such a pointless (and not funny) 'joke'.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG who are you? if i call you a p ussy will you be offended?

[DrSavage]

hijack
Can someone fill me in on the origin of "lelaise" ?
/hijack

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


3rd, the title of your post can be construed (probably correctly) as a racist insult. Do you really feel the need to muddy up a hand discussion with such a pointless (and not funny) 'joke'.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG who are you? if i call you a p ussy will you be offended?

[/ QUOTE ]

My name is Eric Lindauer. I agree that lelaise in this context can be construed as a racial slur, and that it is probably intended, and certainly unecessary.

You can call me all the names you want, and since I don't know you, you'll have a hard time offending me. I'll probably be inclined to think of you as a dimwitted nobody who isn't smart enough to come up with something insightful to say and feels the need to replace wit with mud slinging. Sadly, such people seem to thrive in the anonymity of cyber space.

good luck.
Eric

[sweetjazz]

I (probably very stupidly) thought "lelaise" was just a typo. If it was meant as a slur, that's really lame, and I'm sorry I continued to use the word in my reply.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
I (probably very stupidly) thought "lelaise" was just a typo. If it was meant as a slur, that's really lame, and I'm sorry I continued to use the word in my reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

i find laughter makes life more bearable

what did he have? people saying he won't call the river 3 bet w/ KQ are crazy

[flawless_victory]

get a life.
if you dont find the title humorous, fine.
if you think im a racist, lol. whatever.
if you didnt get the joke, you must not play live often... dont worry, it wasnt all that hysterical.

BTW/ im willing to lay some huge odds that every person who voiced outrage is white.

[flawless_victory]

i threebet, which seemed obvious at the time.
i figured he maybe couldve played KQ or TT this way, and i should give him a chance to pay off. i also thought another AQ was the most likely holding and i should give him a chance to fold. i dont know his postflop tendencies too well, so whatevs.

he thought fow at least 10 sec(!?) and then called w/ Q9.

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
if you didnt get the joke, you must not play live often... dont worry, it wasnt all that hysterical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just got it. I thought it was pretty funny.

Edit:

[ QUOTE ]
i also thought another AQ was the most likely holding and i should give him a chance to fold

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[baronzeus]

whatever. 3betting is still right imo.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
get a life... BTW/ im willing to lay some huge odds that every person who voiced outrage is white.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's see... two people were in agreement that the title could be construed as racist, and suggested it was unecessary. One guy asked what you were talking about, and one guy said it was lame.

Where's the "outrage"? I see what you are doing. You are exaggerating our responses to make it seem that WE are in the wrong, like we're all crazy hyper-sensitive fools who don't understand that it's ok to stereotype if it's in the context of a lame joke. Why don't you just do the right thing, and admit that your choice of titles was not the best.

Since you brought it up by the way, everyone has the right and the obligation to shoot down ethnic slurs wherever they are seen, not just those in the target audience. Doing so is way more important than any poker content discussed in this thread.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you brought it up by the way, everyone has the right and the obligation to shoot down ethnic slurs wherever they are seen, not just those in the target audience. Doing so is way more important than any poker content discussed in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we assume there are only three possible responses to the title of this post, disgust, indifference, or amusement, i believe the triple that best expresses the average white male's response to the title is:

{1, 19, 80}

and furthermore, for an asian like myself

{0, 0, 100}

therefore he played it correctly. Feel free to dispute my math, but I ran it through pokerstove and doublechecked.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


3rd, the title of your post can be construed (probably correctly) as a racist insult. Do you really feel the need to muddy up a hand discussion with such a pointless (and not funny) 'joke'.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG who are you? if i call you a p ussy will you be offended?

[/ QUOTE ]

My name is Eric Lindauer. I agree that lelaise in this context can be construed as a racial slur, and that it is probably intended, and certainly unecessary.

You can call me all the names you want, and since I don't know you, you'll have a hard time offending me. I'll probably be inclined to think of you as a dimwitted nobody who isn't smart enough to come up with something insightful to say and feels the need to replace wit with mud slinging. Sadly, such people seem to thrive in the anonymity of cyber space.

good luck.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying you've never heard that term in a cardroom? I hear it all the time. Along with 'Ni Han.' It's actually common enough that it's almost typical banter in a cardroom and not a racial slur.

You can blame asians for popularizing those terms as they seem to be the ones I hear going out of their way in using them the most.

b

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you brought it up by the way, everyone has the right and the obligation to shoot down ethnic slurs wherever they are seen, not just those in the target audience. Doing so is way more important than any poker content discussed in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we assume there are only three possible responses to the title of this post, disgust, indifference, or amusement, i believe the triple that best expresses the average white male's response to the title is:

{1, 19, 80}

and furthermore, for an asian like myself

{0, 0, 100}

therefore he played it correctly. Feel free to dispute my math, but I ran it through pokerstove and doublechecked.

[/ QUOTE ]

great post

[flawless_victory]

ty tongni.
let these niggas know!

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
ty tongni.
let these niggas know!

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[rtrombone]

Just because you're not offended doesn't mean titles like this are fine.

I'm Asian, and I wasn't offended in the least. Play in any California card room and you'll likely see non-Asians use phrases like "ni han" while engaging in playful banter with Asians. There have been posts about how bad beetz, a white kid and poster here, regularly busts out Vietnamese phrases at the table. Everyone is friends with one another (or at least friendly), and it's clear no offense is meant, so it's all good.

But say, "I LELAISE" loudly to a tatted up Asian you don't know from Adam and you're liable to get your ass kicked, or worse. Fights have broken out over less.

Again, I wasn't offended by the title. I'm not a fan of political correctness in general. But I'm not a recent immigrant who can't pronounce "reraise." I imagine a high-school kid who gets made fun of because of his accent wouldn't feel too hot if he saw flawless' post. Are there such individuals on 2+2? Maybe. I don't know.

In 2001 Sarah Silverman told a joke on Conan O' Brien that included the word "chink." Various Asian groups complained but nothing really came of it. Now, I wasn't offended by the joke; in fact, I thought it was funny. But I was offended by Silverman's cavalier attitude toward the whole thing. She insisted that the joke wasn't in poor taste, when it clearly would've been had she substituted "nigger" or "faggot" for "chink." In a 2003 interview she revealed that--surprise, surprise--she didn't have any Chinese friends (in response to the question, "Did your Chinese friends give you hell for the infamous joke ...?).

An Asian kid who gets called "chink" every day in school sure as hell would be offended by Silverman's joke, even if she thinks it's completely harmless.

When it comes to matters of this sort, it's often difficult to discern the line between what's offensive and what's acceptable. I believe it's even more difficult for white people, as they simply have not had the experiences other groups have had. This is why many champions of super political correctness are white--they think things are more offensive than they really are.

But it works the other way, too. Just because you think something isn't offensive, don't go around proclaiming that you're in the right and that anyone who disagrees is a PC Nazi. You will almost never be the best judge of what's ok and what isn't.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I felt obligated to jump in when tongni pulled the race card, a card to which a white person is hard-pressed to respond.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you're not offended doesn't mean titles like this are fine.

I'm Asian, and I wasn't offended in the least. Play in any California card room and you'll likely see non-Asians use phrases like "ni han" while engaging in playful banter with Asians. There have been posts about how bad beetz, a white kid and poster here, regularly busts out Vietnamese phrases at the table. Everyone is friends with one another (or at least friendly), and it's clear no offense is meant, so it's all good.

But say, "I LELAISE" loudly to a tatted up Asian you don't know from Adam and you're liable to get your ass kicked, or worse. Fights have broken out over less.

Again, I wasn't offended by the title. I'm not a fan of political correctness in general. But I'm not a recent immigrant who can't pronounce "reraise." I imagine a high-school kid who gets made fun of because of his accent wouldn't feel too hot if he saw flawless' post. Are there such individuals on 2+2? Maybe. I don't know.

In 2001 Sarah Silverman told a joke on Conan O' Brien that included the word "chink." Various Asian groups complained but nothing really came of it. Now, I wasn't offended by the joke; in fact, I thought it was funny. But I was offended by Silverman's cavalier attitude toward the whole thing. She insisted that the joke wasn't in poor taste, when it clearly would've been had she substituted "nigger" or "faggot" for "chink." In a 2003 interview she revealed that--surprise, surprise--she didn't have any Chinese friends (in response to the question, "Did your Chinese friends give you hell for the infamous joke ...?).

An Asian kid who gets called "chink" every day in school sure as hell would be offended by Silverman's joke, even if she thinks it's completely harmless.

When it comes to matters of this sort, it's often difficult to discern the line between what's offensive and what's acceptable. I believe it's even more difficult for white people, as they simply have not had the experiences other groups have had. This is why many champions of super political correctness are white--they think things are more offensive than they really are.

But it works the other way, too. Just because you think something isn't offensive, don't go around proclaiming that you're in the right and that anyone who disagrees is a PC Nazi. You will almost never be the best judge of what's ok and what isn't.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I felt obligated to jump in when tongni pulled the race card, a card to which a white person is hard-pressed to respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2246/ohrry10xc2jb.png

[phish]

rtrombone,

Well said. My main objection to it was that it was not funny and unnecessary. I give a lot of leeway to offensive jokes that are truly funny. But unfunny slurs are merely gratuitous at best and mean-spirited at worst.

This forum, in contrasts with some of the other forums here, have generally maintained a high standard of maturity and serious discussion. The immature name calling and insults that seem pervade some of the other forums have generally been absent here. I'd just hate to see this forum degenerate with the pointless intrusion of gratuitous slurs.

[bugstud]

you are too quick, I soooo wanted to do this.

[Lestat]

I was going to title a post, "Y'all should've seen this hand!". But now I won't. Wouldn't want to offend any 2+2ers from south of the Mason Dixie line.

[Alexthegreat]

I think a post with a title containing a derogatory phrase/term in an open forum shows a lack of forethought and class.

Most of the posters here probably don't find anything wrong with it and will laugh along with you flawless, but next time you would do well do consider what you are saying about yourself with a title like that.

You know, I didnt even get the "joke" in the title here until someone pointed it out. However, I feel that anything that is said out of humor, and not out of ill will or hatred is easily defined. I think that flawless is not out of line or racist in his remark. In fact, I think that anyone who could draw a link to what he said "le-laise" and racism is too sensitive to a cause that isn't that great. I hear jokes about my accent being from Texas, and the occasional redneck remark. SO what? It's funny, isn't it? People need to be able to draw a line between comments made out of malice and comments made in jest.



Tex

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I feel that anything that is said out of humor, and not out of ill will or hatred is easily defined

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not sound correct to me. How many times have you seen a situation arise because of a "joke" that someone didn't find funny??

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> I think a post with a title containing a derogatory phrase/term in an open forum shows a lack of forethought and class. </font>

I see nothing derogatory about it. OP was simply trying to add some levity to his title by playing with dialect.

No offense, but I can't even imagine living inside such a closed world where minor things like this are offensive to you. Definitely stay out of comedy clubs.

[rtrombone]

You still don't get it. Jokes poking fun at Asian accents are sometimes as lighthearted as jokes about Southern accents, but they're often not.

Look, I know flawless didn't mean any harm by his title. I know he's not racist. He seems like a good guy. I wasn't offended, and it wouldn't surprise me if nobody on 2+2 was. The 2+2 audience, by and large, isn't comprised of the types that would be.

So if he didn't mean any harm, and no harm was done, what's the problem? If that's the case, there isn't one. In this particular context the wording of his post isn't offensive at all.

The point I'm trying to get across is that we've gotta be careful with blanket statements that something is or isn't offensive. If you're not a member of the affected group, how are you supposed to know? You think you can put yourself in their shoes, but you can't.

Black people complain all the time about things to which white people can't relate. Many conclude that said black people are simply making stuff up, causing trouble. There's a disconnect there because white people don't know what it's like to be black. They only think they do.

Back to the Southern accent jokes. The difference between these and other, more malicious, jokes is that they're not a shot at a race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. You guys know that around the world entire groups of people are persecuted for being different. In more civilized countries like ours, the mistreatment doesn't rise to the level of persecution. Still, these groups have to deal with a hell of a lot more [censored] than members of the majority.

So you're from the South. Were you ever truly hurt by a joke about your accent? Were these jokes followed by comments that your family should go back to Mexico or whatever boat it was they got off of? That you're inherently dumber than white people and good only for carrying a football? Did it ever get so bad that you questioned your self-worth and began rejecting everything to do with the South?

What is it that Jim Mora said? "You think you know, but you don't. And you never will."

But we can try.

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
The point I'm trying to get across is that we've gotta be careful with blanket statements that something is or isn't offensive. If you're not a member of the affected group, how are you supposed to know? You think you can put yourself in their shoes, but you can't.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Alexthegreat]

It's not offensive to me...

But I'm sure it's offensive to someone...

I can't imagine living in such a closed world where you didn't understand this.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Did it ever get so bad that you questioned your self-worth and began rejecting everything to do with the South? </font>

I think you nailed it. It's people with little self-worth who would find this offensive. I can't imagine a confident successful person getting upset over such a minor play on words.

Any further discussion on this should be transferred over to the politics forum.

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not offensive to me...

But I'm sure it's offensive to someone...

I can't imagine living in such a closed world where you didn't understand this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
You still don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank goodness you were here to break it down for him and everyone else and stand up against Racism in a public forum. [ QUOTE ]
I know he's not racist. [...]

[/ QUOTE ]

So much for that idea. But, wow, a mind reader too. The force is strong in you.

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't offended

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're speaking for the voiceless then, the oppressed, disenfranchised everywhere. Confronting the oppressor. Striking out against Ignorance. All from your computer keyboard on 2+2's poker strategy forum. Fabulous.

Maybe you don't get it?

FWIW ($0.00), I thought it was a stupid thing to put in a subject line.

First of all, redenck jokes stretch much farther than someones accent. Jokes about people from the south often make fun of genetics, poverty, and the overall quality of life for a vast majority of people. When I say redneck, I say that because by a Texans standards I am not, but by a Yankees standard or a Californians standard, I probably would be.

You think the only thing white people from the south get made fun of for is their accent? You're not very observant. My ancestors created a civil war to keep slavery legal. I promise you that the jokes made about the category I fall into stretch much farther than accents.


If something is funny, it's funny. And if you dont like it, that's why we have FREE SPEECH. So you can say why you dont like it, and so others can say it if they want. I dont like censorship ON ANY LEVEL. Trying to curb someones conversation or remarks is censorship, and it cannot exist in the same breath with freedom of speech.

I dont like blatant racism, but I tolerate things I dont like to hear because of the greater cause.



Tex

[rtrombone]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that jokes about Southerners can be just as hurtful as those about minority ethnic groups. I'm not a Southerner so I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.

If I operate under this assumption, I won't make a statement that is likely to piss off or hurt somebody from the South. It may be funny to me, but it won't be to him. Now, if I know a guy is fine with whatever, it's open season. Context is everything.

Whether or not I have the right to make such a statement is a separate issue. I'm inclined to agree with you that the less censorship, the better.

All I'm saying is this: (1) If you know doing something will probably offend somebody, why do it? The fact of the matter is that people often do stuff with the intention of hurting others, even though that's clearly not what happened here. (2) It's dangerous to presume to know what is or isn't offensive.

That's all.

I'm assuming you dont watch southpark.

Good thoughts, though.


Tex

You guys all need to just chill and watch Family Guy, the most PC show of all-time.