Makes sense to NOT move up?

[HonchoOverload]

If you're absolutely killing one of the intermediate levels like the $33s, doesn't it make more sense NOT to move up? I've seen a lot of posts stating that people are killing a certain level like the $33s at like a 45% ROI and it seems like if you're doing so, DON'T move up because there's no way you'll make that kind of $$$$ at the $55s or the $109s or the $215s.

I play a comparable level to the $33s (although I play the six-handed stars tourneys, so I'm not sure how the ROI and such would differ), and with just a few hundred tourneys I'm killing them for a 31% ROI. At this rate, based on what the FAQ says the expected ROI is for the higher levels, I'm not sure I'd want to move up!!! Anyone else feel staying at the mid levels is better than moving up?

In order to make the same $$$$ as I do now by moving up to the $55s, I'd have to be cruising at a 20% ROI and I'm not sure that's possible as the competition starts getting more pro at that limit...

[runner4life7]

did you happen to look at the ROI for the 30s on the same page? how about you look again and realize what a "heater" is

[splashpot]

20%ROI at the $33s is the same as 12%ROI at the $55s. Of course it makes sense to move up.

[HonchoOverload]

Alright, assuming I accept the fact that I'm on a 700 tourney heater (which actually I agree with), I'm asking if there are people who actually prefer to play a the 33s over the 55s or the 55s over the 109s because the $$$$ just works out better in the long run

[runner4life7]

with that said, actually I am one of those that prefers the 30s over the 55s, with about 1000 30s played and 300 50s played.

[Slim Pickens]

You can make some arguement for not moving up if

a) your ROI is higher at the 33's (probably true)
b) you can play more tables at the 33's because the fewer starting chips leave you with fewer complicated hands and more push/fold preflop per tournament.

Play around with different ROI and # of tables, as well as maybe 10 min less per tournament (or 5 per set if you play in sets) and see what you get.

[durron597]

Thread 1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3034170&page=0)

Thread 2 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3243872&page=0)

Thread over

[Slim Pickens]

Durron is going citanul on us tonight.

EDIT: got it before it got locked! woot.

[raptor517]

i assure you even the 119 turbo 6 maxes on stars are about as donkey filled as the 22s on party. you wont have too much trouble. holla

[GrekeHaus]

You will make more at the 55s than the 33s if your ROI at the 55s is 3/5 of your ROI at the 33s. If you have a decent ROI at the 33s, this should be possible, but if your ROI is small, you might make less or even lose at the higher levels.

Other things to consider:

1) It might be worth moving up even if you make less money at the 55s if you're interested in working on your total game. However, if your ROI is small enough that you make less money, you probably can still learn quite a bit at the 33s.

2) The 33s start with fewer chips so the games go faster. Thus, a similar win rate in terms of $/tournament will make you more $/hour at the 33s.

3) A similar win rate at the 33s will have fewer significant downswings because the absolute ROI is higher.

[chisness]

think about a couple things:

1) if you move up past a certain level, the competition might at some point become so difficult that you have to reduce the number of tables you play or suffer because you need to focus on player characteristics more. this level is at least $50.

2) are the swings going to be emotionally too much for you? the $50 to $100 and $100 to $200 large jumps will result in massively larger swings because roi will be lower and (obv) the stakes are higher. it's very possible that 50 cents more per tournament in the long isn't worth having nights where you'll lose $1500 instead of your normal awful downswing of $600 (numbers chosen fairly randomly).

edit: 3) rb/vip also can be significant when you move up

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
think about a couple things:

1) if you move up past a certain level, the competition might at some point become so difficult that you have to reduce the number of tables you play or suffer because you need to focus on player characteristics more. this level is at least $50.

2) are the swings going to be emotionally too much for you? the $50 to $100 and $100 to $200 large jumps will result in massively larger swings because roi will be lower and (obv) the stakes are higher. it's very possible that 50 cents more per tournament in the long isn't worth having nights where you'll lose $1500 instead of your normal awful downswing of $600 (numbers chosen fairly randomly).

edit: 3) rb/vip also can be significant when you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

point number 3 makes quite a bit of diff too.. the rakeback jump can help like 2-3 bucks per tourney. thats pretty nice if yer a large volume player. its worth the swings for a couple hundo extra per day. or not.. actually i hate dropping 4k in an evening session and it being normal. holla

[chisness]

exactly, in my opinion losing a couple thousand a night would cause lots of problems with school and doing work cause when i'm down i usually like to keep playing hoping the cooler warms up, so if i have a pset due the next day, it might come last. being used to this at the college age can also probably screw up our concept of money for when we get regular jobs. also, it sucks going to sleep knowing you were $4000 richer 5 hours before.

on the other hand, we are playing a gambling game and maybe this just means only those cut out to handle the swings can be the biggest winners.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Durron is going citanul on us tonight.

EDIT: got it before it got locked! woot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I wasn't planning to lock this one. But he asked about making more at the 33s because of worse play, and I supplied him the threads that answered his question.

[Hornacek]

a) I don't understand why everyone is telling him about the chip sizes... he already told us he plays at Stars, so the starting chip count is irrelevant.

b) Having 1500 chips to start out may also account for his higher ROI, since these tournies take longer, which are more favorable to the better players.

c) If you're doing well at the $33s, the $55s aren't much tougher. It's not like a magical switch will get turned on where all the players are super gosu.

d) What are you trying to do: make money or get better at poker? If it's getting better at poker, move up. If it's making money: are you happy with the amount you make at the $33s right now? The $55s on Party are absolutely donktastic.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
i assure you even the 119 turbo 6 maxes on stars are about as donkey filled as the 22s on party. you wont have too much trouble. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

my problem with this level is that it's 5 minute rounds instead of ten. I don't get why they don't run a non-turbo version of this.

People don't stay back because they know in their heart of hearts that 43% is not sustainable. Might as well take the heater to the next level and hope it lasts a little while longer at the higher stakes.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
did you happen to look at the ROI for the 30s on the same page? how about you look again and realize what a "heater" is

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing in the FAQ is THAT relevant to OP's q. The 6 handed games at stars have 1500 in chips, slow blinds (10minutes?), and different payout structure (70-30??).

I assume he plays the 36s or whatever it is. These games allow, and actually REQUIRE a lot of poker to be played. NOt only do blind-stack ratio stay wide, but the blinds come around fast so a lot of post flop poker is necessary. This will usually allow cream to rise to the top and I wouldne be surprised if higher than normal ROIs were recorded long term.

As far as moving up goes, I would dabble in them and see. Also consider that the higher 6 handed SNGs probably do not fill up as fast on stars so mulititabling could be a problem.

FWIW, I started out playing the 12s-6 handed a long time ago and remember them being quite easy...and I was a total donk at the time.

[HonchoOverload]

Thanks, pooh - I'm having a hard time fitting into this forum because nobody else plays the same game I do. It seems that only a very small number of players play these limits regularly. There's only probably three players I see every day.

I honestly do believe that a higher than normal ROI is sustainable at this level though. The interesting thing about my stats is that the deviation seems significantly less. I guess I need to wait till I have about 2000 in tournaments to really know.

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[/ QUOTE ]

what is the next BI after the 30s for the 6Handed?

I used to feel alone here too...now everyone and their mother is playing the stars turbos. I'm sure the same will happen with the all the games eventually.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
a) I don't understand why everyone is telling him about the chip sizes... he already told us he plays at Stars, so the starting chip count is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't be bothered to read an entire post before responding. I just glance at the topic and write whatever crap pops into me head.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[/ QUOTE ]

what is the next BI after the 30s for the 6Handed?

I used to feel alone here too...now everyone and their mother is playing the stars turbos. I'm sure the same will happen with the all the games eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only choices are $35+3 ten minute rounds of $110+9 turbos...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[/ QUOTE ]

what is the next BI after the 30s for the 6Handed?

I used to feel alone here too...now everyone and their mother is playing the stars turbos. I'm sure the same will happen with the all the games eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only choices are $35+3 ten minute rounds of $110+9 turbos...

[/ QUOTE ]

The 110+9s arent 6 handed are they? Because, in the case, there's also the 55+5s.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[/ QUOTE ]

what is the next BI after the 30s for the 6Handed?

I used to feel alone here too...now everyone and their mother is playing the stars turbos. I'm sure the same will happen with the all the games eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only choices are $35+3 ten minute rounds of $110+9 turbos...

[/ QUOTE ]

The 110+9s arent 6 handed are they? Because, in the case, there's also the 55+5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they are. There are turbo 109s and turbo 55s that are nine handed. The 110+9 is specifically a turbo 6-handed structure. I really don't understand why they don't offer $70s as well. I really prefer 6 handed and I really prefer the deep stacks/long rounds.

[HonchoOverload]

The names have been changed to protect the guilty, but here's the response I got...

Hello ****,

Thank you for your suggestion, I have forwarded to the person in charge
of
considering this.

Regards,

Christian
PokerStars Support Team


----- Original Message -----
From: ************************
Sent: 2005/11/21 12:22:51
To: support@pokerstars.com
Subject: 6 handed tournaments?

>Is there any way you guys could look toward adding a
>$70 6-handed tournament? I play the $35s every day and
>it seems like there's more than enough interest for
>another level. I would love to "move up" but there's
>really nowhere to go with that kind of structure...the
>only higher structure you offer is a turbo and that's
>a completely different kind of game. I would be most
>appreciative if you guys could maybe look into adding
>$70 and $110 6-handed (non-turbo) tourneys. Thanks!
>
>****************
>username: **********

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should write stars support and plead them to add a non-turbo $119

[/ QUOTE ]

what is the next BI after the 30s for the 6Handed?

I used to feel alone here too...now everyone and their mother is playing the stars turbos. I'm sure the same will happen with the all the games eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only choices are $35+3 ten minute rounds of $110+9 turbos...

[/ QUOTE ]

The 110+9s arent 6 handed are they? Because, in the case, there's also the 55+5s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they are. There are turbo 109s and turbo 55s that are nine handed. The 110+9 is specifically a turbo 6-handed structure. I really don't understand why they don't offer $70s as well. I really prefer 6 handed and I really prefer the deep stacks/long rounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats weird that the only turbo, 6 handed structure starts at 110. If there are a lot of regulars where you play and you run into the same people often...have them write as well.

I've only played a handful of six-handed SNGs, but I sent off a note to PS asking about the higher buy-in games. Just adding another voice to your quest.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
I've only played a handful of six-handed SNGs, but I sent off a note to PS asking about the higher buy-in games. Just adding another voice to your quest.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, man, I really appreciate it!

HonchoOverLoad....I want to congratulate you....I tried to post a similar question a few weeks ago (to your 2nd paragraph) and nobody must of understood me because I got almost no answers and all anybody told me was that I can't sustain my ROI......but you managed to get answers to your question which is nice because I have been wondering about some of these things myself.

I play the 6 handed games at Bodog and I agree that it is hard to compare yourself to others because most people play 10 person games. Anyway, I am killing the Bodog games....I only have about 250 SNG's that I've tracked so far, but my ROI is just over 45% right now. From what I have read on this forum, I can expect my ROI to go down, but I agree with you that I think a higher ROI is possible on the 6 person games than the 10 person games. My own personal experience is that....

I use to play at Pacifc Poker where I did pretty well, but one month I had a period where I won something like 11 out of 14 of the 5 person short handed games they have (the 33's). But I only made about $300 over this period of time....and from keeping track of my stats I know that I finish in 1st way more than 2nd or 3rd, but I was artifically making less money because Pacific pays out top 3 out of 5 players. So I made the switch to Bodog which has a more top heavy payout for 1st place and I have been much happier since.

At any rate, my own personal opinion is that a higher ROI is possible with the 6 person SNG's than the 10 person SNG's. So for example, with Bodog I need to compare my ROI at 6 person with what I "think" I can get at the 10 person games at a higher level. So I guess whether or not you move up all depends on that math of what your ROI will be if you move up....but I agree that I think it CAN make sense to stay where you are because you might make more money at the 33's....but you won't know unless you know your ROI if you move up at a higher level versus your current ROI.

It would be great if you can keep me posted on if you move up or not, but more importantly WHY you chose to move up or stay where you are, I would be very interested in what you decide because I think we are in a very similar boat and I have been torn between similar decisions.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
HonchoOverLoad....I want to congratulate you....I tried to post a similar question a few weeks ago (to your 2nd paragraph) and nobody must of understood me because I got almost no answers and all anybody told me was that I can't sustain my ROI......but you managed to get answers to your question which is nice because I have been wondering about some of these things myself.

I play the 6 handed games at Bodog and I agree that it is hard to compare yourself to others because most people play 10 person games. Anyway, I am killing the Bodog games....I only have about 250 SNG's that I've tracked so far, but my ROI is just over 45% right now. From what I have read on this forum, I can expect my ROI to go down, but I agree with you that I think a higher ROI is possible on the 6 person games than the 10 person games. My own personal experience is that....

I use to play at Pacifc Poker where I did pretty well, but one month I had a period where I won something like 11 out of 14 of the 5 person short handed games they have (the 33's). But I only made about $300 over this period of time....and from keeping track of my stats I know that I finish in 1st way more than 2nd or 3rd, but I was artifically making less money because Pacific pays out top 3 out of 5 players. So I made the switch to Bodog which has a more top heavy payout for 1st place and I have been much happier since.

At any rate, my own personal opinion is that a higher ROI is possible with the 6 person SNG's than the 10 person SNG's. So for example, with Bodog I need to compare my ROI at 6 person with what I "think" I can get at the 10 person games at a higher level. So I guess whether or not you move up all depends on that math of what your ROI will be if you move up....but I agree that I think it CAN make sense to stay where you are because you might make more money at the 33's....but you won't know unless you know your ROI if you move up at a higher level versus your current ROI.

It would be great if you can keep me posted on if you move up or not, but more importantly WHY you chose to move up or stay where you are, I would be very interested in what you decide because I think we are in a very similar boat and I have been torn between similar decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

very cool. I will keep you posted on what happens. good to know there are other 2+2ers who play 6-handed! Or actually, it's NOT good to know that if they're competing with me on Stars... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've only played a handful of six-handed SNGs, but I sent off a note to PS asking about the higher buy-in games. Just adding another voice to your quest.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, man, I really appreciate it!

[/ QUOTE ]A response withing an hour (or so):

"So far as limited play at bigger stakes... yes, I know what you mean, and you hit the nail on the head. The games we spread are in direct response to the demand. If and when more people begin asking for higher stakes, then we will begin spreading more games at those levels."

Sounds like you just need to get more of your fellow 6-handed players to ask.

[HonchoOverload]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've only played a handful of six-handed SNGs, but I sent off a note to PS asking about the higher buy-in games. Just adding another voice to your quest.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks, man, I really appreciate it!

[/ QUOTE ]A response withing an hour (or so):

"So far as limited play at bigger stakes... yes, I know what you mean, and you hit the nail on the head. The games we spread are in direct response to the demand. If and when more people begin asking for higher stakes, then we will begin spreading more games at those levels."

Sounds like you just need to get more of your fellow 6-handed players to ask.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will definitely do that, but I don't understand this response. What the hell is keeping them from just opening up a new series of tables? The bandwidth doesn't cost anything and the code can just be copied and pasted...it's not like people wouldn't play it.

Nonetheless I'll get the regulars I know on it. Thanks again!