Holdem, Foldem-or Raisem -$650 Event

[Prime Time]

Ok, lets see how good our hand reading skills are.

What are vilains and my(PGA71) hole cards?
Should I call, foldem or raise?
How did each of us play?

$650 sat to the Stars PCA.
Read on villain is that he is an agressive good player.
Believe that my image to the table is very solid getting plenty of respect. About 17 players left w/ 11 $12K seat packages granted

The table has seen me make a strong come back and have mostly won with hands unshown. The shows have been monsters(AA,KK and QQ)

PokerStars Game #3105182924: Tournament #14922730, Hold'em No Limit - Level XI
(600/1200) - 2005/11/19 - 22:47:09 (ET)
Table '14922730 21' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: proFile (29343 in chips)
Seat 2: stevejpa (62019 in chips)
Seat 3: GenetikFreak (15270 in chips)
Seat 4: mbh3282 (36813 in chips)
Seat 5: Carmen35 (32828 in chips)
Seat 7: jcamby33 (32294 in chips)
Seat 8: PGA71 (24402 in chips)
Seat 9: chump4chips (20968 in chips)
proFile: posts the ante 75
stevejpa: posts the ante 75
GenetikFreak: posts the ante 75
mbh3282: posts the ante 75
Carmen35: posts the ante 75
jcamby33: posts the ante 75
PGA71: posts the ante 75
chump4chips: posts the ante 75
Carmen35: posts small blind 600
jcamby33: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PGA71 (X X)
PGA71: raises 2400 to 3600
chump4chips: folds
proFile: folds
stevejpa: folds
GenetikFreak: folds
mbh3282: folds
Carmen35: folds
jcamby33: calls 2400
*** FLOP *** [3h Ad Js]
jcamby33: checks
PGA71: checks
*** TURN *** [3h Ad Js] [8s]
jcamby33: bets 3600
PGA71: calls 3600
*** RIVER *** [3h Ad Js 8s] [8c]
jcamby33: bets 10800

Hero should?

Again:
What are vilains and my hole cards?
Should I call, foldem or raise?
How did each of us play?

[bawcerelli]

i'm not very good, but i think you have kings, and i think he has you beat with an ace.

[Hotrod0823]

I think you can safely fold your QQ to his AJ.

The flop check looks like he was going for a check raise.

His smallish bet on the turn was bait looking for a push from either AQ or AJ, and his river bet was like ok you aren't coming over the top of me, how much are you willing to call with your AQ, AK or KK ??

Just a guess who knows maybe I'm way off and you were able to push your slow played AA on the river.

[McMelchior]

Haven't read any of the previous answers, but let me goof all by my self:

IMHO Villian's actions would make sense if he holds any of these hands: AA, AK, JJ, or 88 (!). Maybe calling PF with 88 would be a tad on the loose side, but it's certainly not an option I can exclude, and after your call on the turn he would have reason to believe he could be paid off.

Your holding is a bit more cryptic to me, but since you're opening UTG for 15% of your stack I assume it's in the prime end: High pocket pair TT+, AK, AQ.

Since you afford to check the flop and flat call the turn with no obvious draw (I can't see how you could hold a flush draw here), I assume you hit the flop hard. Which means pocket AA or pocket JJ. I just can't see you making the PF raise with AJ. Checking the flop/calling the turn with KK or QQ comes across as way to donkish for me to believe it, and I strongly assume you would have raised the turn with AK or AQ. A FH for you, and two pair, a boat or quads for your opponent.

OK, now I've shown how clueless I am. Now push!

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can safley fold your AJ to his 78.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Prime Time]

I commend the attempts, and now realize how difficult it is to figure these things out.

The truth is that this hand is very complex.

Original clues that no-one seemed to take into account:

“Read on villain is that he is an aggressive good player.
Believe that my image to the table is very solid getting plenty of respect.
The table has seen me make a strong come back and have mostly won with hands unshown. The shows have been monsters(AA,KK and QQ)”

With that said, made a loose raise because of my image w/ A 10.(If someone comes over the top it’s easy to get off of.)

Now the villain calls and we see the flop. (I put him on a pocket pair QQ-22 feeling that he would re-pop AA or KK here, looking to flop a set and bust me. Of course, I am thinking he has me on a hand that I can’t get off of or AK)

When the flop hits, and have top pair, I can play this several ways and chose the way ahead way behind approach thinking it will net me the most by using his aggression against him. (Where is MLG and Colson this hand)

So by checking the flop, he cooperates by firing at the turn 8s putting the flush draw out.

The river pairs the 8 and he fires the 10.8K bet.

Must confess, that I had a plan but that river card and villain’s bet had me reevaluating my decisions and left me w/ some doubt as to if I had blown this. Went pretty deep into my time bank and ..........

OK answered question about my hole cards.
Now again.
What are villains hole cards?
Should I call, foldem or raise?
How did each of us play?

[MLG]

First, I hate the preflop raise here. I'm all about stealing blinds, even from up front, but do it with a hand which is less likely to get you into a tricky situation. I'm inclined to play very very snug here. As for the WAWB, that is great because it allows you to extract the maximum value from medium strength holdings. Late in sat I'm not worried about missing value, I'm worried about taking the pot and not facing difficult decisions on later streets. I bet the flop here (as I would with monsters and misses like 90% of the time at this point in a sat). The reason I don't like your line at this point in the tourney is that while in a normal tourney situation I think the river call would be clear. Here, its not at all.

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I hate the preflop raise here. I'm all about stealing blinds, even from up front, but do it with a hand which is less likely to get you into a tricky situation. I'm inclined to play very very snug here. As for the WAWB, that is great because it allows you to extract the maximum value from medium strength holdings. Late in sat I'm not worried about missing value, I'm worried about taking the pot and not facing difficult decisions on later streets. I bet the flop here (as I would with monsters and misses like 90% of the time at this point in a sat). The reason I don't like your line at this point in the tourney is that while in a normal tourney situation I think the river call would be clear. Here, its not at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise- agree, not something I do often, and something that should not have been done here. Was an image thing here.

WAWB we both agree.

If you are the villain here, what are you putting me on? I showed weakness checking the flop, and was not check raised on turn, but called?

Is he firing the last barrel because he thinks he can get us to lay the best hand down, or is he value betting?

Yes, he put us to a tough decision, or was it?

[bugstud]

I think this is an absurdly hard decision.

[ QUOTE ]
Read on villain is that he is an agressive good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is he good enough to slowplay two streets? That is, if he flopped a big hand, would he just check the turn as well? Or would he be more likely to lead the betting on the flop with a big hand?

This is a very tough decision. I'm trying to find a range for villain to hold using this betting pattern, and the thing is: it's enormous. He could have a huge hand, or he could have 77. The line you chose put yourself in this spot, which is why I hate check/calling unless I know for certain I have the best of it.

Ugh. Ew. Bleah. Blech.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I hate the preflop raise here. I'm all about stealing blinds, even from up front, but do it with a hand which is less likely to get you into a tricky situation. I'm inclined to play very very snug here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am more of a control my own destiny type late in these things. I'm not sure if it's the way to go, but it seems like most people are content with folding their way into a seat when they really have no business doing it. PGA's stack seems like he is in no way able to sit there and win a package. So, I'd tend to open up quite a bit and steal the blinds. It seems like in these things there is much less of a FU U ARE STEALING MY BLINDs factor because people almost want to view the crazy guy stealing all the blinds as the good guy, because he's the volatile one that will untilately allow them to fold into the money.

In terms of this hand, I really don't see what is so tough here. It seems like a pretty clear fold. You can call and pray for a chop, or hope he has air, but I feel like in these things people generally stay very true to color, especially against someone who raised UTG and then showed interest with an ace on the flop.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

You have to remember that your average player can fire the turn here, but that follow up on the river with pure air is far less common.

-Jason

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
but I feel like in these things people generally stay very true to color, especially against someone who raised UTG and then showed interest with an ace on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

where exactly did he "show interest"

[Jason Strasser]

he showed interest after an ace flopped woulda been better wording... I was referring to the turn call.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I was referring to the turn call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't interpret the turn call as "showing interest" generally.

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to remember that your average player can fire the turn here, but that follow up on the river with pure air is far less common.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why I had to use the time bank so long.
Would have been easier call if he pushed.
He was sophisticated and knew this.
See Final Results.

[Prime Time]

We were on the tough river decision cause we allow ourselves to play this hand like a trap to win the most chips.

A call and lose leaves me 7K (and at the bottom of the heap)
A fold leaves me 17K and still a lot of work left.
A call and win puts me 4th in chips and virtually lock up a seat. (like Strassa said at this point a few weeks ago “Im pretty sure if i lose im terrible”)

Would have been easier call if he pushed, because we expected a push or a check.
He was sophisticated and knew this and I felt this was a great bet on his part.

I make the call, complete the WAWB play and to my delight he turns over 9 9.

As MLG stated earlier "As for the WAWB, that is great because it allows you to extract the maximum value from medium strength holdings."

[bugstud]

that guy plays goot. vnc tho. so you got a seat?

[Jason Strasser]

im tired what does wawb stand for.

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
that guy plays goot. vnc tho. so you got a seat?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in bro thanks.
Was down to 700 chips after a third of the tourney was complete. (got crippled by a shorter stack both all in)
Think I was 101 of 101 or something like that w/ the ave around 5200.
With only a throw away hand left, came all the way back to be 4rth in chips to the point where I folded into the seat for the last hour.

Lesson learned:
Chip and a chair
Never Give up.

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
im tired what does wawb stand for.

[/ QUOTE ]

"When the flop hits, and have top pair, I can play this several ways and chose the way ahead way behind (WAWB)approach thinking it will net me the most by using his aggression against him."

[durron597]

The way you played it, you almost have to call here with AT.

That said I would probably play it your way and call any river bet that didn't pair the jack - unless I had the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. If I did, I would probably raise the turn to about 8500 and fold to a push - I've gotten sufficiently paid off here with my top pair and if he has the ability to bluff me with a worse hand and no flush draw more power to him.

[bugstud]

sweeeeet. the more the merrier.