Doyles big laydown

[scrapperdog]

In SS2 one of the guest writers writes about how Doyle was playing in a cash game and had pocket aces, another player had pocket 2's and another had pocket 4's. Flop A24. Bettting capped. Turn is 2. Doyle lays down his aces full to quad 2's.

Does anyone else find this almost unbelivable? This was in limit holdem which makes it even harder to make that laydown. BTW river was a 4 and quad 4's beats quad 2's (if I remember right).

I am not saying this story is not true just pointing out how amazing this laydown was to anyone that missed it.

[TheMetetron]

If it really was limit hold'em that has to be a bad laydown.

[scrapperdog]

I just checked, yes it was limit holdem, Doyle led with aces full and folded turn to a double raise. Game was 80/160 which is still a lot of money but was a lot more back when this was played.

[NLfool]

you know what, I never take a poker player's word on what he has or folded. I mean all those players on TV know they are being recorded and they all lie about what they folded (sammy being the exception).

I don't think you can say it's a bad or good laydown till you know what all the action was, during the hand and before the hand.

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can say it's a bad or good laydown till you know what all the action was, during the hand and before the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got the impression he was colluding with the his friend who had the quad 2's. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can say it's a bad or good laydown till you know what all the action was, during the hand and before the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as the action pre flop or even during the hand it does not really matter top possible full house is top possible full house any way you look at it. Unless you have a superman type of read. This is on page 76 of SS2.

[2+2 wannabe]

this is pretty poor unless he is playing the tightest mother [censored] in the world, and even then it's bad

[teddyFBI]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can say it's a bad or good laydown till you know what all the action was, during the hand and before the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you can.
If this story is even true (dubious), then this fold is one of the worst you'll possibly see anywhere, ever. "Reads" be damned.

[bmxreed36]

It would be a good laydown if there was no cap and the other guy had put in the 76th raise on the turn. (Then again, he has odds to draw to quads) /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[soko]

I'm sure players were much more passive back in those days, so much so that this might be possible.

Doyle raises before the flop so the chance that any of them have the straight is almost nil

it's capped on on the flop and he is holding 2 of the aces, nobody reraised him before the flop so he isnt expecting anyone to be holding an ace worthy of a reraise/cap on this flop so he believes he is up agianst a set

the turn pairs and they are betting out, he lays it down.

pretty incredible if true, the game was nothing like it is nowadays, maybe he had an awesome read that he could tell they were holding sets on the flop.

[teddyFBI]

I can't believe you spent time trying to justify that laydown.
Perhaps you're a NL player, and don't understand how incredibly poor a play making this fold would be in limit (also donkey-play in NL, for the record).

Short of both opponents flipping their cards face up, no 'read' supports folding this. But hey, whatever sells a lot of books, right?

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
Short of both opponents flipping their cards face up, no 'read' supports folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[soko]

The main point I was trying to make was, maybe Doyle had played enough with these guys to know that they would only call or raise a 3-bet on the flop with at least a set if there was an ace showing and doyle was the preflop raiser also showing agression on the flop.

I would never make that kind of laydown, I am trying to imagine what the days of poker were like before any authorative books on poker were out, I see a bunch of old men who are only playing the nuts and never mix up their play.

[PLOlover]

20/40 game set over set over set A94 , only two of us made it to showdown, the quad Aces and poor me with Fours full.

Maybe I was cheated or the lady lied to me about laying down 99, but what else could she possibly have she put in a lot of money.

Proably she knew the guy and he nonverbally told her he had nuts and to let the sucker (me) pay him off. lol. Guys will do anything to maybe get laid I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
I would never make that kind of laydown, I am trying to imagine what the days of poker were like before any authorative books on poker were out, I see a bunch of old men who are only playing the nuts and never mix up their play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong... actually back in the day you had a mix of suckers and sharks. In a small town environment you get to know who's who. Not sure of that particular hand but I've played with some of those folks that also played with Doyle back in the day here. I've seen 2 of those players in a hand where I kid you not, one guy layed down a straight flush to another guy (who had a higher straight flush). What you may not believe but is absolutely true is that this was a 3-6 limit game.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gildwulf]

I remember when Doyle laid this hand down...it was the summer of dickety-seven (the Kaiser stole our word for dickety). Doyle had an onion on the belt which was the style at the time. Anyway, so the Kaiser caps the turn and gets so excited throwing his chips into the pot that his spiked helmet falls off and impales his left sack:

Doyle: Did that hurt?
Kaiser: (obviously in pain) No.
Doyle: You have quads. I fold.
Kaiser: Damn you doooooyle, you've foiled me for the last time!!!!!!one111!!

[SoCalRugger]

That's just horrible poker. In limit holdem, not taking a straight flush to showdown is awful.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember when Doyle laid this hand down...it was the summer of dickety-seven (the Kaiser stole our word for dickety). Doyle had an onion on the belt which was the style at the time. Anyway, so the Kaiser caps the turn and gets so excited throwing his chips into the pot that his spiked helmet falls off and impales his left sack:

Doyle: Did that hurt?
Kaiser: (obviously in pain) No.
Doyle: You have quads. I fold.
Kaiser: Damn you doooooyle, you've foiled me for the last time!!!!!!one111!!

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[tripdad]

let us assume that it is the absolute truth that doyle laid down aces full to quads in a limit game.

to all those who say it is a terrible laydown in any limit game no matter what read you have on your opponent, i say baloney. according to the FTOP, it is correct to lay aces full down to quads depending on the odds the pot is laying you. doyle brunson is arguably the greatest poker player to ever live...who are you to dispute his read?

hell, twice in the past 2 months, i've seen amatuer players make laydwns in no limit and pot limit games that were nothing short of brilliance....and that many of you would say are terrible.

the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[BOTW]

The error is not necessarily in these laydowns. These laydowns are awesome* and worthy of praise. The error is doing it again when you are facing a worse hand. Then again when facing a bluff, etc. You don't need to make an improper 'great laydown' very often to show a massive loss. (I exhibited a "tell" once that resulted in a 'great laydown' in a big pot and he was proud. The whole table talked about it the rest of the night. Unfortunately for him, I was bluffing and had just seen the waitress approaching with my drink.)

*depending on stack size, pot size, etc.

[teddyFBI]

go post this in the mid/high-stakes limit forum and then count the number of new assholes you're torn.

i am done with this retarded thread.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
go post this in the mid/high-stakes limit forum and then count the number of new assholes you're torn.

i am done with this retarded thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather laugh at the almighty 2+2 mid/high stakes god-like posters when they attempt to tell doyle brunson what a terrible lay-down he made. (again, assuming this tale of the great lay down is the truth, which is debateable to say the least)

tripdad

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

These aren't even close to the example given at the beginning - given that they're NL and all

The first hand is easy if there's a read that the initial raiser will only raise with AA from the position he was in (which I'm sure there was)

A reraise in NL from the BB is significant - I'm sure the initial raiser put your wife on AA/KK only (the re-raise from the BB with KK is a questionable play at best) - then when she overpushed coming back to her it's a pretty easy laydown with QQ. If she wouldn't have reraised PF she'd have had the other guy's stack.

Plus you have to take into consideration when people make these laydowns and they're wrong (which happens quite frequently - I'd say more often than the pot odds are offering - especially in 2/5 with less than 200 behind)

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
let us assume that it is the absolute truth that doyle laid down aces full to quads in a limit game.

to all those who say it is a terrible laydown in any limit game no matter what read you have on your opponent, i say baloney. according to the FTOP, it is correct to lay aces full down to quads depending on the odds the pot is laying you. doyle brunson is arguably the greatest poker player to ever live...who are you to dispute his read?

hell, twice in the past 2 months, i've seen amatuer players make laydwns in no limit and pot limit games that were nothing short of brilliance....and that many of you would say are terrible.

the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is that this is a LIMIT game and the pot was most likely laying Doyle ridiculous odds. So he got this one right, but if his reads are ever wrong (Which they sometimes are (http://lgb.philgordonpoker.com/index.php?q=node/8)) he is making a HUGE error. If the pot is 20 bets it costs him 2 more bets to get to the river and win 24 bets. He's getting 12-1 to call down. That means his read has to be right 92% of the time for it to be a breakeven play.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
let us assume that it is the absolute truth that doyle laid down aces full to quads in a limit game.

to all those who say it is a terrible laydown in any limit game no matter what read you have on your opponent, i say baloney. according to the FTOP, it is correct to lay aces full down to quads depending on the odds the pot is laying you. doyle brunson is arguably the greatest poker player to ever live...who are you to dispute his read?

hell, twice in the past 2 months, i've seen amatuer players make laydwns in no limit and pot limit games that were nothing short of brilliance....and that many of you would say are terrible.

the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is that this is a LIMIT game and the pot was most likely laying Doyle ridiculous odds. So he got this one right, but if his reads are ever wrong (Which they sometimes are (http://lgb.philgordonpoker.com/index.php?q=node/8)) he is making a HUGE error. If the pot is 20 bets it costs him 2 more bets to get to the river and win 24 bets. He's getting 12-1 to call down. That means his read has to be right 92% of the time for it to be a breakeven play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both other players had sets on the flop, it was gonna cost him 8 bets to see the showdown.

PF raise 3BB
Flop capped 6BB
turn he is laying effectively 1:9 but if he thinks it will be capped on the turn and river he is going to have to put a total of 8 more bets in to win a pot of around 33 by the showdown.

Edit: That is, his read needs to be correct 3 in 4 times. or 75% of the time the both of them had sets on the flop.

I had it backwards last time.

[tripdad]

i know my wife misplayed her hand...that wasn't the point.

as for the 1st situation, i agree that it is sometimes easy to tell when certain players have AA preflop because of certain tells (though the AA guy was on the button, so position had nothing to do with it). still an impressive laydown for someone who is only a part time amatuer player.

tripdad

[Danenania]

This wouldn't have to be that big of a deal. With some decent reads, especially in a live game, there are situations involving fairly tight and passive players on a board like this where a fold would not only be correct but easy.