View Full Version : Value betting the donk. Live 5/5
Chaostracize
11-20-2005, 06:18 PM
Playing 3-handed with BobboFitos and an enormous fish. The guy wants to play so well, and he's so horrible. Someone came to sit at our game, decided not to and announced that we "knew what we were doing." For the next 15 minutes the donk kept saying "he just complimented us, that guy just complimented us, he thinks we're good!"
Anyway, he probably thinks I'm full of crap because I'm doing a lot of betting a raising. But he also knows I'm not a (complete) idiot.
Donk has about 1200 and I have him covered. Bobbo straddles for 10 on the button, donk raises to 25, I call with ATo, Bobbo folds.
Flop: QJ8r (Pot=60)
Donk checks, I bet 50, donk calls.
Turn: QJ8Kr (pot=160)
Donk checks, I bet 125, and donk... shows me his hand.
He shows me AQo and says... "did you hit that turn???"
After 2 minutes deliberation he calls.
River: QJ8KK (Pot=410)
Donk checks, I bet...?
Wayfare
11-20-2005, 06:20 PM
Go all in!
FatalError
11-20-2005, 06:27 PM
push, there is a huge gap in the middle between betting about 100$ here and betting it all, he calls alot when your bets are small, almost never when your bets approach pot sized, but as your bets approach all in, your chance of getting called actually slowly rises, and your bet looks more like a bluff. If you get called once when you bet 100, never when you bet 400, and one out of 8 times when you move all in (simple numbers) then you can do the math from there and decide what to do
punter11235
11-20-2005, 06:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Go all in!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I agree. It reminds of great thread by Limon about combating angles shooters some time ago.. unfortunately I dont have this link...
yvesaint
11-20-2005, 06:31 PM
push, that river card is good (theres only 2 other Ks left in the deck, so theres even LESS chance you have one now!! right??)
plus donks like to make heroic calls more than they like to make heroic folds
Push fairly quickly and avoid eye contact. He sounds like an awesome guy.
Chaostracize
11-20-2005, 06:43 PM
About inducing the call from A high, I remember that, good thred.
BobboFitos
11-20-2005, 06:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go all in!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I agree. It reminds of great thread by Limon about combating angles shooters some time ago.. unfortunately I dont have this link...
[/ QUOTE ]
This guy = not an angle shooter.
This guy = moron.
This guy = hollywooded for 5 mins when i led into him on a 9 9 2r board saying "do you have the 9?" Obv it was a 3handed pot with Chaos still to act.
So in conclusion, he showed Chaos his hand, because he doesn't want to pay off a big bet, therefore, you should make a smaller bet, because this guy, once again, = sucks.
Edit*: My wording is a little harsh. AZK played a fun hand with him though, which I had listen to for the next 5 hours when he was on my right. Thanks, ari!
Im beginning to think an all in would be kinda cool though.
BobboFitos
11-20-2005, 06:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Push fairly quickly and avoid eye contact. He sounds like an awesome guy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had to remind him to post every 10 seconds. But yes, was alot of fun.
We actually got dealt so many hands, and the time charge was so low for 3 handed... I really, really want to do that again, and soon.
punter11235
11-20-2005, 07:14 PM
Ok here is something interesting :
Assume that after showing his cards your opponent become the best poker player ever and he will play optimally from now on (he will read your mind easily so any tries to "trick him" are futile). What now ? What's the correct betsize ? Can this question be answered at all ?
I will post the answer later I hope its interesting point.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
EDITED : to add description of perfect player
durrrr
11-20-2005, 09:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ok here is something interesting :
Assume that after showing his cards your opponent become the best poker player ever and he will play optimally from now on (he will read your mind easily so any tries to "trick him" are futile). What now ? What's the correct betsize ? Can this question be answered at all ?
I will post the answer later I hope its interesting point.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
EDITED : to add description of perfect player
[/ QUOTE ]
The perfect betsize is then allin w/ the correct bluff ratio.
punter11235
11-20-2005, 09:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The perfect betsize is then allin
[/ QUOTE ]
I was quite happy when I figured it out some time ago. Also interesting fact is that "bluffing leverage" is worth from 0 to 0.5x (x = potsize) depending on how much money you have on the table (but it never rich full 0.5x).
I dont know how much impact is has on holdem strategy but I suspect that its good idea to play in this way that you are always able to get allin with the nuts and always have some possible weak hands to bluff with.
Best wishes
gol4pro
11-20-2005, 10:19 PM
300$. The fact that he deliberated so long on the turn is making me shy away from a push.
durrrr
11-20-2005, 11:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that its good idea to play in this way that you are always able to get allin with the nuts and always have some possible weak hands to bluff with.
Best wishes
[/ QUOTE ]
This can be negated by the fact that you dont know your opponent's hands, and that they dont play perfect. In the particular hand I either push, or i bet ~150. I think ~300 is the worst that you can go.
Chaostracize
11-20-2005, 11:08 PM
How about looking really nervous, then betting 500 really quickly?
/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Chaostracize
11-29-2005, 06:49 PM
I'm torn between pushing and betting small against this particular opponent. Against someone who was an iota smart there is no doubt I'm pushing, but I think here, I'm never getting called if I push against this guy because he was SURE I hit a K for some reason.
Anyway, I bet 500 after thinking for a bit, then pushed it in really quickly and tried to look as nervous as possible. He folded after a little bit. I made the worst possible bet, imo.
Also, I saw him again this Monday and he proudly told me how called a pot sized all in with AK on a T high board "because {I} was sure he had JJ".
He promptly hit running QJ to win the pot. I told him he played it very well.
meleader2
11-29-2005, 07:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm torn between pushing and betting small against this particular opponent. Against someone who was an iota smart there is no doubt I'm pushing, but I think here, I'm never getting called if I push against this guy because he was SURE I hit a K for some reason.
Anyway, I bet 500 after thinking for a bit, then pushed it in really quickly and tried to look as nervous as possible. He folded after a little bit. I made the worst possible bet, imo.
Also, I saw him again this Monday and he proudly told me how called a pot sized all in with AK on a T high board "because {I} was sure he had JJ".
He promptly hit running QJ to win the pot. I told him he played it very well.
[/ QUOTE ]
ashame you can't "buddy list" live players by marking their foreheads with a sharpee. a big black "X"
BobboFitos
11-29-2005, 07:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm torn between pushing and betting small against this particular opponent. Against someone who was an iota smart there is no doubt I'm pushing, but I think here, I'm never getting called if I push against this guy because he was SURE I hit a K for some reason.
Anyway, I bet 500 after thinking for a bit, then pushed it in really quickly and tried to look as nervous as possible. He folded after a little bit. I made the worst possible bet, imo.
Also, I saw him again this Monday and he proudly told me how called a pot sized all in with AK on a T high board "because {I} was sure he had JJ".
He promptly hit running QJ to win the pot. I told him he played it very well.
[/ QUOTE ]
ashame you can't "buddy list" live players by marking their foreheads with a sharpee. a big black "X"
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, you can, they just get upset about it though
Chaostracize
11-29-2005, 07:53 PM
See? This is why no one takes you seriously.
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