hrm...?

[youngin20]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP2 ($25.55)
CO ($9.40)
Button ($29.15)
Hero ($40.55)
BB ($25.40)
UTG ($33.85)
UTG+1 ($15.50)
MP1 ($42.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds</font>, CO raises to $0.5</font>, 1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($2.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)</font>
Hero bets $2</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 folds, CO folds.

River: ($6.50) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)</font>
Hero bets $4.5</font>, UTG raises to $10</font>, Hero ???

[youngin20]

No real reads, and how does preflop look as well?

[youngin20]

ANY comments? Should I have popped on the flop/turn? Call/Raise/Fold?

[CobraGoat]

Why didnt you bet the flop? What is a check doing for you? You are in the dark for the rest of the hand.

[Mercman572]

without a read looks alright. Easy river call

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didnt you bet the flop? What is a check doing for you? You are in the dark for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting gain you? A player might call behind, and you don't know if you're beat or they are drawing. You build a pot OOP. If you bet the flop will you bet the turn as well? Without the flushdraw I bet flop check turn. With it I don't mind letting someone possibly draw free to a flush since your hand might not be good anyway, I get to see the action and lead a blank turn depending on how it goes (you expect a weak ace to bet and a flush draw to check)

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didnt you bet the flop? What is a check doing for you? You are in the dark for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting gain you? A player might call behind, and you don't know if you're beat or they are drawing. You build a pot OOP. If you bet the flop will you bet the turn as well? Without the flushdraw I bet flop check turn. With it I don't mind letting someone possibly draw free to a flush since your hand might not be good anyway, I get to see the action and lead a blank turn depending on how it goes (you expect a weak ace to bet and a flush draw to check)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot of really awful advice in this reply. I hate to be so critical but 100% of this is fundatmentally incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
What does betting gain you?

[/ QUOTE ]

How bout taking down the pot? People calling with worse hands? Forgive me if I want to put money in the middle when ahead, but that's just me.

[ QUOTE ]
A player might call behind, and you don't know if you're beat or they are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you play poker from here on out. Don't justify checking because you're afraid they'll call and you don't know what they have. Play poker for [censored]'s sake.

[ QUOTE ]
With it I don't mind letting someone possibly draw free to a flush since your hand might not be good anyway,

[/ QUOTE ]

Never have there been more incorrect words spoken. You should NEVER let someone draw for free. You are honestly going so say that you'd check and let him draw because your quote "hand probably won't be good anyway?" You've already been defeated and are consistanly bleeding away EV w/ this attitude.

As for the hand goes, pot the flop. On the turn I am more inclined to bet than to check, esp at $25max. However, checking will control pot size but it'd be a shame if it goes check-check and he shows AJ.

The river is one of those spots where worse hands will fold and better hands will never fold but call/raise (on the assumption you bet the river for value). Given these scenarios, check-call is also effective. Lets him bluff a missed flush draw, bet a worse Ace and lets you lose the minimum to an underfull.

trevor's reply is pretty much spot on

[Mercman572]

So you advocate playing large pots multiway on draw heavy boards OOP? I don't. The majority of +EV situations come with position or with big hands, not marginal hands OOP.

You also didn't adress a line for if you pot the flop and are called (there isn't a good one and that's my point). This is not a very +EV situation and thus you lean towards pot control at the cost of some +EV.

EDIT: "As for the hand goes, pot the flop. On the turn I am more inclined to bet than to check, esp at $25max. However, checking will control pot size but it'd be a shame if it goes check-check and he shows AJ."

This is my point. You bet and then check turn. This is bad, you're giving a free card ANYWAY. You charge him to see one card instead of 2 eitherway, except you invest your money when your hand has more of a chance of being outdrawn with potting the flop

[yvesaint]

wait are you serious that you dont bet this flop mercman??

you dont HAVE to play a large pot multiway, you can check turn, you dont have to bet full pot, etc., but dont you want some value? worse aces will call you down

this can be a very +EV position

If you're not going to bet when your AQ hits, then fold it down preflop...hitting and checking the flop makes little sense. You're going to let someone draw free, because your hand might not be good anyway? What?

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
wait are you serious that you dont bet this flop mercman??

you dont HAVE to play a large pot multiway, you can check turn, you dont have to bet full pot, etc., but dont you want some value? worse aces will call you down

this can be a very +EV position

[/ QUOTE ]

depends, loose passive I'll bet this almost every time. Lag I'll let them bet for me since they'll bet a weaker ace . I will call and see if anybody else comes along. I find I can much better find out where I'm at and also represent the flush draw by betting turn if it falls on the turn if I figure my ace might not be good.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not going to bet when your AQ hits, then fold it down preflop...hitting and checking the flop makes little sense. You're going to let someone draw free, because your hand might not be good anyway? What?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not understand the contingencies of a hand? I will stack off with AQ when the opponent is a certain type, and I will fold it when I hit my ace against another. Against unknowns and OOP I lean towards weaktight. Note I don't advocate folding this at any point.

[ QUOTE ]
You bet and then check turn. This is bad, you're giving a free card ANYWAY. You charge him to see one card instead of 2 eitherway, except you invest your money when your hand has more of a chance of being outdrawn with potting the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather give a free river than a free turn card

[ QUOTE ]
Do you not understand the contingencies of a hand? I will stack off with AQ when the opponent is a certain type, and I will fold it when I hit my ace against another. Against unknowns and OOP I lean towards weaktight. Note I don't advocate folding this at any point.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what happens when they check the flop, and the turn is a spade? By playing weak tight, you've just deemed your hand useless for 20% of the time.

If you check, and then bet the turn...if the turn is a rag, and you have a caller, then they probably would have called on the flop anyway. If the turn is a spade or completes a draw, then you're probably behind. There's no reason to check, and then bet.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You bet and then check turn. This is bad, you're giving a free card ANYWAY. You charge him to see one card instead of 2 eitherway, except you invest your money when your hand has more of a chance of being outdrawn with potting the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather give a free river than a free turn card

[/ QUOTE ]

?? Bet flop bet turn check river to induce a bluff hasn't been discussed yest but its a good line especially with a read

[ QUOTE ]
Bet flop bet turn check river to induce a bluff hasn't been discussed yest but its a good line especially with a read

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what we've been saying! But your first reply was questioning why someone would bet the flop...

[Wayfare]

Raise preflop, bet flop, c/c turn, c/r river all in.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
wait are you serious that you dont bet this flop mercman??

you dont HAVE to play a large pot multiway, you can check turn, you dont have to bet full pot, etc., but dont you want some value? worse aces will call you down

this can be a very +EV position

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think I addressed this fully. I check the flop to induce action from a weak ace when it might fold when I bet. I feel that a weak ace will bet and a draw will check behind if I check. I feel I gain more action from weak aces this way. I feel it allows villain to more clearly define his hand while opening up a call from a weak ace if it gets checked through when I bet the turn, and if someone has a flush draw I lay worse odds by betting the turn rather than the flop.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet flop bet turn check river to induce a bluff hasn't been discussed yest but its a good line especially with a read

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what we've been saying! But your first reply was questioning why someone would bet the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah I was playing devils advocate /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I don't think there are clear cut lines in this situation and illustrating that

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, bet flop, c/c turn, c/r river all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are a pooh-bah and all, but it is hardly beneficial to simply give a line without any rationale.

Would you care to elaborate on the c/r all in on the river?

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
You also didn't adress a line for if you pot the flop and are called (there isn't a good one and that's my point). This is not a very +EV situation and thus you lean towards pot control at the cost of some +EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I did. It was: As for the hand goes, pot the flop. On the turn I am more inclined to bet than to check, esp at $25max. However, checking will control pot size but it'd be a shame if it goes check-check and he shows AJ.

See my original reply.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]

So what happens when they check the flop, and the turn is a spade?

If you check, and then bet the turn...if the turn is a rag, and you have a caller, then they probably would have called on the flop anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it gets checked through and a spade hits i check fold and lost $.35. My ideal spot would be a LP raisor, I call and the players inbetween fold. Now if a spade comes, I bet it. I do this with a more weak kicker mostly however. Maybe they'd call a weak ace (ok at this level they would) but maybe not. If you know they will by all means bet

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
if someone has a flush draw I lay worse odds by betting the turn rather than the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you hate money. You see that regardless of what price you give him if you have TPGK and he's drawing and you check the flop you lose EV right?

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, bet flop, c/c turn, c/r river all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are a pooh-bah and all, but it is hardly beneficial to simply give a line without any rationale.

Would you care to elaborate on the c/r all in on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a poo bah just means I post a lot; that is easily accomplished with posts with no rationale behind them /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe c/r river is wrong c/c river is fine. I feel that hero can't realistically expect to play unpaired, unsuited high cards for a min raise preflop and see the flop five handed, let everyone draw for free, and expect to be happy with the results.

I retract the c/r river portion.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You also didn't adress a line for if you pot the flop and are called (there isn't a good one and that's my point). This is not a very +EV situation and thus you lean towards pot control at the cost of some +EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I did. It was: As for the hand goes, pot the flop. On the turn I am more inclined to bet than to check, esp at $25max. However, checking will control pot size but it'd be a shame if it goes check-check and he shows AJ.

See my original reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

see my original edit. And see my point on the trade off of betting the flop and checking turn vs the other way around. With one card you are 20% to make a flush, but 33% for two cards. By making a bet on the flop and checking turn, the player has 33% chance of making the hand WHEN THEY CALL THE BET, as opposed to 20% if you make the bet on the turn. Therefor you force a bigger mistake when they call.

My points are that, my line is not fundamentally incorrect, but is instead a reasonable alternative, and that there may not be an optimal line here. No one has portrayed one so far at least with cost benefits or EV considerations.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
my line is not fundamentally incorrect

[/ QUOTE ]

It always is/will be when you let someone draw for nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, bet flop, c/c turn, c/r river all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are a pooh-bah and all, but it is hardly beneficial to simply give a line without any rationale.

Would you care to elaborate on the c/r all in on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a poo bah just means I post a lot; that is easily accomplished with posts with no rationale behind them /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe c/r river is wrong c/c river is fine. I feel that hero can't realistically expect to play unpaired, unsuited high cards for a min raise preflop and see the flop five handed, let everyone draw for free, and expect to be happy with the results.

I retract the c/r river portion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I was just curious about the advice--thought maybe I was missing something. I think c/c on the river is best as well.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if someone has a flush draw I lay worse odds by betting the turn rather than the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you hate money. You see that regardless of what price you give him if you have TPGK and he's drawing and you check the flop you lose EV right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you back this up rather than just throw that term around? You havne't addressed any of my cost/benefit points or provided any of your own.

Does it look like hero lost out on EV here given that he looked weak enough for villain to Raise the river rather than call? Looks about the same.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my line is not fundamentally incorrect

[/ QUOTE ]

It always is/will be when you let someone draw for nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Than how can you say this about pot control "checking will control pot size but it'd be a shame if it goes check-check and he shows AJ" ?

The magnitude of the mistake increases there. You're risking giving a free card in a larger pot. I am fully open to that being discredited but it hasn't been adressed yet.

EDIT: I'm approaching this from a game theory perspective and trying to discount/accredit the EV of two opposite lines. You should do the same

[ QUOTE ]
You're risking giving a free card in a larger pot. I am fully open to that being discredited but it hasn't been adressed yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The chance of him drawing to a card that beats you is lower when he's already invested more money into the pot, therefore, its less risky to check.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're risking giving a free card in a larger pot. I am fully open to that being discredited but it hasn't been adressed yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The chance of him drawing to a card that beats you is lower when he's already invested more money into the pot, therefore, its less risky to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds are roughly the same to see 1 card, what do you mean? It's about 23 or so percent to see a single card from the flop to turn, and 21% to see from turn to river.
By betting flop and checking turn you essentially let villain see 2 cards for the price of a single bet (the turn and river card for the price of the flop bet). So he has a 37% chance of hitting. The turn bet has charged him to see one card rather than two.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if someone has a flush draw I lay worse odds by betting the turn rather than the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you hate money. You see that regardless of what price you give him if you have TPGK and he's drawing and you check the flop you lose EV right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you back this up rather than just throw that term around? You havne't addressed any of my cost/benefit points or provided any of your own.

Does it look like hero lost out on EV here given that he looked weak enough for villain to Raise the river rather than call? Looks about the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Hero is psychic he cannot predict that the villain is going to raise that river with a hand worse than his. Plus we do not know what the next two cards are going to be. It would really suck if we let him fill up on the turn wouldn't it?



Anytime someone is drawing and you give them a free card, you have just given them "infinite" odds--not good.

I don't mean the odds of actually drawing a card...I meant its more likely that he's NOT drawing to a flush, and if he is, he's already made a mistake.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean the odds of actually drawing a card...I meant its more likely that he's NOT drawing to a flush, and if he is, he's already made a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what you're saying. This is what I'm saying.
$2.50 in the pot. A PSR and its 2.5 for villain in a $5 pot or 2-1 on his money on a 3-1 shot if you check the turn. He STILL makes a mistake by calling, good.

Now looking at a turn bet in the same pot. It is still 2-1 on villains call, only now he is calling 2-1 on a 5-1 shot. Isn't that better?

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
So you advocate playing large pots multiway on draw heavy boards OOP? I don't. The majority of +EV situations come with position or with big hands, not marginal hands OOP.


[/ QUOTE ]
You have top pair with second best possible kicker on the flop. This is not a marginal hand. Almost none of your arguments make sense. Screw it, I will say all of your arguments dont make sense. Bet your hand. Dont let people draw for free. This is basic poker.

[trevor]

Let's just assume he's on the flush draw and that's your read. Someone can do the EV calculation, but if you bet the flop (and are called) and just sometimes bet the turn (a fair assumption), it's a lot more EV than just checking the flop and betting the turn. That's simple

[scrapperdog]

I dont know about anyone else but I bet flop, bet turn, bet river here. Possible check-call on river to let a busted flush bluff and just to be safe, but usually bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Now looking at a turn bet in the same pot. It is still 2-1 on villains call, only now he is calling 2-1 on a 5-1 shot. Isn't that better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he hits on the turn!

[Lucky]

raise all in on river, obviously.

Preflop, a raise is good. However, with a bunch of donk calling stations, you really dont want to pump it with AQ, get three callers, then miss flop. I like raising AQ with tightish players where i can take it down the vast majority of time with PF raise or contination bet.

When you raise PF, think about WHY you're doing it and what you're trying to accomplish.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
You have top pair with second best possible kicker on the flop. This is not a marginal hand. Almost none of your arguments make sense. Screw it, I will say all of your arguments dont make sense. Bet your hand. Dont let people draw for free. This is basic poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I agree, you don't seem to get what I'm proposing. In this case betting all three streets is the best option. However I am still inclined to believe (based on my nonsensical reasoning) that checking the flop and betting the turn here is superior to betting the flop and checking the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's just assume he's on the flush draw and that's your read. Someone can do the EV calculation, but if you bet the flop (and are called) and just sometimes bet the turn (a fair assumption), it's a lot more EV than just checking the flop and betting the turn. That's simple


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, undoubtedly but you changed the conditions. If you KNOW the opponent has a flush draw it's best to bet both the flop and turn. For the EV of the original conditions where you either bet the flop and check the turn, or the otherway around it is more +EV to bet the turn as seen by the calculation I did.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about anyone else but I bet flop, bet turn, bet river here. Possible check-call on river to let a busted flush bluff and just to be safe, but usually bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those two lines are best

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now looking at a turn bet in the same pot. It is still 2-1 on villains call, only now he is calling 2-1 on a 5-1 shot. Isn't that better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if he hits on the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ridiculous. Ok so he hits turn and you've lost the money you invested when you bet rather than saving it if you checked. See why that doesn't matter? I'm give up

[ QUOTE ]
That's ridiculous. Ok so he hits turn and you've lost the money you invested when you bet rather than saving it if you checked. See why that doesn't matter? I'm give up

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats not ridiculous. He usually misses the turn, therefore you make more money than you lose.

Its ridiculous to "save" money by NOT betting, when your hand is good the majority of the time.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw it, I will say all of your arguments dont make sense

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm give up

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we're finally getting somewhere.

[youngin20]

Well, I guess you guys should know...I call on the river, villain shows AT and MHIG. And for the record, I was going for a CR on the flop..just whiffed. I figured SOMEONE was going to bet that flop...