Gutshot and over(s?) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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lerxst337

11-19-2005, 11:12 PM

I know, I know, this is on UB, and I could do much better.

Table has been mostly passive, but I've only been around about 3 orbits. Seat to my right has been aggressive though. I was definitely peeling one for my gutshot, figured my backdoor draws, and the possiblity of cleaning up the K (and maybe the 9?) might be worth a raise, as the bettor certainly didn't need top pair to bet when checked to.

Any thoughts?

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

W. Deranged

11-19-2005, 11:47 PM

The flop raise is pretty much straight out of Ed Miller. Gutshot + one overcard + solid backdoor flush draw makes this a standard raise. Folding other 7s and better Ks would rule.

I think the rest of the hand plays itself.

PokerSparky

11-19-2005, 11:57 PM

Nice hand. I need to raise more in these kinds of situations. I would have probably just called the flop bet here.

Richard Berg

11-20-2005, 01:41 AM

There is a time & a place for this sort of raise. Lots of people misapply aggression, especially after they read SSH. Your situation is perfect. nh

DrewOnTilt

11-20-2005, 09:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know, I know, this is on UB, and I could do much better.

Table has been mostly passive, but I've only been around about 3 orbits. Seat to my right has been aggressive though. I was definitely peeling one for my gutshot, figured my backdoor draws, and the possiblity of cleaning up the K (and maybe the 9?) might be worth a raise, as the bettor certainly didn't need top pair to bet when checked to.

Any thoughts?

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice play.

I point out that this raise is probably appropriate here because of your relative position. Something that most people don't realize is that with a flop such as this one, we've absoultely got to get other kings such as K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif to fold. You were in perfect position to thin the field since the bet came from your immediate right.

Good play, my man.

binions

11-20-2005, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know, I know, this is on UB, and I could do much better.

Table has been mostly passive, but I've only been around about 3 orbits. Seat to my right has been aggressive though. I was definitely peeling one for my gutshot, figured my backdoor draws, and the possiblity of cleaning up the K (and maybe the 9?) might be worth a raise, as the bettor certainly didn't need top pair to bet when checked to.

Any thoughts?

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to thin the field and perhaps get a free card with a combination of weak draws is a good idea in theory, although in this case you didn't get a free card and it turns out you wanted other players along for the ride.

With 15 outs, I raise the turn here unless I am certain of getting re-raised. Raising the turn allows him to fold occasionally, and also gives you a free showdown a good portion of the time, so it doesn't cost much.

olavfo

11-20-2005, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With 15 outs, I raise the turn here unless I am certain of getting re-raised. Raising the turn allows him to fold occasionally, and also gives you a free showdown a good portion of the time, so it doesn't cost much.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a turn raise would be spewing. A flop 3-bet + turn bet tells me Villain has a hand most of the time, and a typical 2-4 player just doesn't fold very often in this situation. We don't have anything to go to showdown with, so I call the turn and fold the river UI.

It wouldn't be particularly expensive to raise, all things considered, but I don't think we have a +EV situation here.

W. Deranged

11-20-2005, 12:45 PM

Raising the turn here isn't a great idea, in my opinion, because the flop three-bettor is pretty unlikely to fold here. The free showdown effect is not important here because our hand doesn't have showdown value anyway (we're clearly not calling a river bet if we miss; the only value for a free showdown comes when we hit a K or something and want to show that down, but that will happen less than 10% of the time).

WillMagic

11-20-2005, 01:12 PM

Fold preflop - but it looks good postflop.

EDIT: Wow...UTG didn't raise preflop? I was sure he did. Obviously it's a call then.

Nice hand.

Will

Roland19

11-20-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Never fold preflop - but it looks good postflop.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

lerxst337

11-20-2005, 04:20 PM

Thanks for your comments everyone. Obviously, since the hand came through, it looks good, but in retrospect, I feared the value of the raise was a little thin.