Omaha 8 Flop --2 pair

I have been running into a situation where I have a nice hand and flop 2 pair. This is a situation where I often make a bad decision by folding when I should have stayed or vice versa. With A-3-J-8 the flop comes A-4-8. I usually make the decision that there will be a low hand, so hoping to hit another A or 8 is playing only half the pot at best, with a small chance to hit cards for a low. A lot of times when I fold a hand like this, the card I needed shows up. When I try to stick it out, of course it doesn't. Is there a standard rule for this or a best way to play hands like this? I have not seen a lot of material on playing these kinds of flops.

Thanks.

[Jorge10]

Well when there is a low already there like in the hand you used as an example folding is correct. I know you are thinking, but then an 8 or an Ace hits on the turn and I feel stupid for folding. The problem is that the majority of the time that card wont hit. Its a 4 outer, plain and simple. What you are saying is the same as having A/J in holdem and having the flop be K/10/2 and you fold to their bet only to see a Q on the turn. Sure you would have hit the straight, but the fact that this time you hit the straight doesnt mean calling a bet with A/J on a K/10/2 board is not a terrible play. Just dont be short term results oriented or else you might tilt specially when you are running bad and you notice you folded junk that would have flopped the nut boat, if you are short term results oriented you will probably tilt.

[benwood]

Whether to continue with a high hand/high draw when there are 2 or 3 low cards on the board is a complicated decision because it involves so many factors.(1)Is your hand good?(2)How likely is it to remain good?(3)What is the pot offering you vs how much it will cost you to get to a showdown? A cookbook answer is not possible. It takes experience. Good luck. Ben.

[Wolffink]

It's a bit easier if your situation isn't good.

For example, you might take your two pair if the betting has been anemic and you are in last position and only have to call one bet.

You say "when you have a nice hand and hit two pair". Well, imo, the example you give is not a nice hand. Two pair isn't a strong hand. You don't have a low. So what you have is a weak hand with 4 outs that is drawing to 1/2 the pot. If you put this into a pot limit 08 context, it would be abolutely suicidal to draw to this hand over time.

If you have a hand that might be best either way, for example with your two pair and 2nd nut low, you might want to raise and try to get it heads up where you are likely to win one side or the other. For example, in your example, make your 8--a 5. Now you are much, much better, with 2nd nut low, two pair, and also can hit a straigh with your 3-5 if a 2 shows up (and you very well may scoop it then). Now you're cooking with gas and actually have an interesting decision to make (whether to call or raise).

As things stand, if it's a bet & a raise, or you are in middle position, you have to get out without a 2nd thought.

It may be two big bets or more if you want to stay in to the showdown.

"Play to scoop"

[pokernose]

You have a clear fold here. Continuing on a low flop with top 2 is playing for 1/2 the pot at best. If you don't hit your 4 outer, you probably don't get that.

[Buzz]

EC Dub - What to do with flopped two pairs depends upon the particular cards involved and how your opponents are playing.

If no more board cards were forthcoming, you probably would have the best high hand. However, the turn and river are yet to be dealt. By the time you get to the river, in a typically loose ring game, you probably won’t have the best high hand any longer.

With the particular hand and flop you have chosen, low is already possible and the only way a straight or better won't be possible on the river is if the turn and river are a nine and a king (or a king and a nine) that don’t make a flush. Assuming a flush is not already possible, with two cards of the same suit, the odds are 982 to 8 against, and if the flop is a rainbow, 977 to 13 against (either about 75 to 1 or about 123 to 1 against). And if no straight or better is possible on the river, the board on the river will be A489K and somebody easily might have a higher two pair or a set. Thus in a typical loose ring game, there is only a very poor chance of your two pairs, aces over eights, being good at the showdown. You will almost surely have to improve to win. But you only have four outs and you're realistically probably only playing for half the pot. There simply cannot be enough money in the pot for you to have favorable odds to continue to a bet. Thus you have to check and fold to a bet.

In a tight game, the situation might be quite different. If there were only two of you who saw the flop, flopped top two pairs for high probably would end up as the best high hand on the river, and there’s a chance you might end up with the best low with a live trey. In this situation, I’d go ahead and bet the flop with top two pair, and then play poker if called.

In some tight or semi-tight games, under some conditions, there are some flops after which you might try a bluff. But a bluff is generally ill-advised in a typical ring game when there are three low cards on the flop. With three low cards on the flop, you should realistically figure you need to improve from top two pair in order to have a winning high hand on the river.

Sometimes it will happen when you are on the button that everybody will check to you after a flop like this. In that case, you might be tempted to bet, thinking maybe all your opponents will fold and you can steal the pot. Depends on your opponents, I suppose, but in a typical game after a three low card flop, even though everybody has checked to you, the steal-the-pot play has almost no realistic chance of success. (You watch people try it over and over without seeing anyone succeed. The simple reality of the situation is stealing the pot after a three low card flop simply doesn’t work often enough to make the ploy profitable. You’re most likely to get called, and you might get check-raised). A better play,in my humble opinion, is to check yourself, taking the free card and hoping the turn is an eight or an ace. You’ll make a full house on the turn four times out of forty five, and if you do, you can bet then. Otherwise I think your best move is to just fold to the almost inevitable bet on the third betting round.

At any rate, in a typical ring game you should fold if anyone else bets and you should check, hoping for a free card, if nobody does. (However, there are some situations where, depending on your opponents, you should play differently, for example perhaps making it a double bet if a poor and overly aggressive player bets into you and you're fairly certain you can get one-on-one with the poor player by making it a double bet).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]

With the particular hand and flop you have chosen, low is already possible and the only way a straight or better won't be possible on the river is if the turn and river are a nine and a king (or a king and a nine) that don’t make a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that out of position on the flop indicated, check fold is probably the most prudent play since a made low will often be freerolling for high and you pay have to pay a huge price to see if your high only hand is good. However, I don't think your analysis is quite correct. I don't think the OP would mind a turn and river of 88, AA, A8, A7, etc. I would be interested in how the analysis plays out if you consider him having a decent full house or better come out.

Nice post Buzz and others

I've read Zee's book and Shane Smith's book on O8 and I recall plenty of advice on playing draws. But it is the made marginal hands that I find difficult to play.

Any advice on books that cover these type of situations and have lots of hand examples.

Perhaps this forum is the only place to find this type of analysis.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
With the particular hand and flop you have chosen, low is already possible and the only way a straight or better won't be possible on the river is if the turn and river are a nine and a king (or a king and a nine) that don’t make a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cooker - Thanks for responding. Let me rephrase what I wrote.

If the turn is any card other than a king or a nine, a straight (or better) will be possible on the river.

When the turn is a nine, if the river is any card other than a king, a straight (or better) will be possible.

When the turn is a king, if the river is any card other than a nine, a straight (or better) will be possible.

I hope that makes it clear.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the OP would mind a turn and river of 88, AA, A8, A7, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly not.

But Hero is not going to see one of his four outs (an ace or an eight) on the turn or river 820/990, or about 83% of the time, and then unless the turn and river are a nine and a king (or a king and a nine) - and maybe even if they are, Hero won't have a very good hand.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
But it is the made marginal hands that I find difficult to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

fep - Exactly. These are the toughest.

One solution is to avoid starting hands that will tend to put you in this situation. But then you're not playing very many starting hands and the game is not only no fun, but when you do finally get a nice starting hand you want to play after you've folded ten hands in a row, nobody much wants to give you any action.

So you loosen up a bit. But how loose? You'll find lots of disagreement regarding how loose. I think it depends on your opponents.

Buzz

Thanks for the responses everyone. I have pieced together some of the information and will start applying it and see how it works. I think aside from a hand that has other potential, such as A-Q-3-4 flopping A-Q-5 or something like that (where you still have a decent low draw to back you up) it would rarely be a poor decision to just fold 2 pair on the flop. This would probably be particularly true on low flops or flops with 2 or 3 suited cards. Even if the flop was all high cards, flopping 2 pair would be very likely to get outdrawn by straights or flushes.
I usually play pretty standard starting hands, but I see a flop with a number of borderline hands in order to stay a little unpredictable. This should help give me some guidelines to follow when I get myself into a tough situation.
If any of that looks way off, someone let me know /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Appreciate everyone taking the time.