Hell's existence seems incorrect

[hmkpoker]

As some of you know, I'm an atheist. And somewhat serious, even proud about it.

However, there are rare occasions every here and then, sometimes when I'm by myself for a long period of time and alone with my thoughts, when I think "man, what if those Christians are right? What if God and Heaven and Hell are all true and I'm going to be damned for eternity unless I accept?" The worry (although, I can honestly say, it is minor) gives a brief adrenaline release, I toss it over in my mind for a few seconds, know where and why I stand on things, and then my mind goes on to something else.

In no way is this logically affirmative of Christian beliefs. This happens mostly when I am stressed. Maybe I have a lot of work to do tomorrow or I'm worried about bills; lots of irrational thoughts can occur in a person's mind when he's paranoid. Plus the righteousness and confidence of the believers, the number of the believers, all these things can activate the survival instinct in a person and make him want to do whatever is necessary to escape the potential danger. (Y2K comes to mind)

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then. Heck, I remember feeling the same way after a fiery discussion/debate from a guest lecturer in my Islamic Philosophy class.

I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

And I doubt I'd be the first.

So here's the problem: from what I gather, "God has a plan for us." That is, love him, love his works, love what Jesus did, glorify him out of your love, and you will recieve eternal life. I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will. However, if a person can be threatened into believing in God, then I fail to see how that glorifies him.

Another question is why not non-existence for non-believers? Why doesn't God just obliterate the soul of an atheist upon death? Non-existence is a much, much easier concept to handle...after all, I believe that that (more or less) is my post-mortem fate! Without the terrifying threat of damnation, people would not choose Christianity out of fear.

And, it should seem like a more fitting consequence for atheists /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?

Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not NotReady but what I understand Christians to believe is that God created us purely out of agape. Agape is a completely selfless love. The reason for this is that God did not need humans, there was no desire he needed to fulfill. He just did it - and the explanation for this is agape. As an example of agape, take Mother Theresa. She loved people without expecting anything in return. I'm not saying I believe this stuff, but this is my understanding of it.

[Jeff V]

Good post-very interesting.

This also brings up the question of does "insurance" salvation work? If you confess with your mouth, but don't believe in your heart has salvation taken place?

I do think that even if fear brought you to christianity, it definately wouldn't keep you there.




I liked this line.

[ QUOTE ]
And, it(non-existance) should seem like a more fitting consequence for atheists /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Want your cake and eat it too huh? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't have perfect insight into everyone's mind. This was subjective reasoning on my part. However, the degree of worry that I had in mind that would qualify in my statement was so minute as to be imperceptible, bear that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am quite sober. If you scare someone enough, they will do what they need to survive. However, they must believe the threat. Logic can be a practical escape from the threat if the believer holds it to be untrue with sufficient certainty.

Note also the words "in the unlikely event." I seriously, seriously doubt that it would ever happen, but stranger things have happened and I'm willing to explore the possibility as an intellectual exercise here.

[ QUOTE ]
Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell are you, my professor? You missed the entire point of this post.

[hmkpoker]

Thanks for the insight...I still want NotReady's take on it though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't have perfect insight into everyone's mind. This was subjective reasoning on my part. However, the degree of worry that I had in mind that would qualify in my statement was so minute as to be imperceptible, bear that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am quite sober. If you scare someone enough, they will do what they need to survive. However, they must believe the threat. Logic can be a practical escape from the threat if the believer holds it to be untrue with sufficient certainty.

Note also the words "in the unlikely event." I seriously, seriously doubt that it would ever happen, but stranger things have happened and I'm willing to explore the possibility as an intellectual exercise here.

[ QUOTE ]
Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell are you, my professor? You missed the entire point of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant credibilty to me not universally but it was a bit tounge in cheek! You might has well have said you might become a satanist or a cathiolic or a muslim or any God damn thing that threatens non-believers with eternal damnation.

If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

[/ QUOTE ]

The human mind is more malleable than you might think. Yes, it is very, very improbable, and I'd be exercising a lot of creativity to come up with a series of situations that would lead to it. Nevertheless, it is not impossible. I'm sure it's happened before. With such phenomenally abstract situations such as these, it is reasonable to at least acknowledge the possibility, no matter how improbable.

May David Sklansky rape your children if you don't understand this.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.


[/ QUOTE ]

When us Catholic types receive the Sacrament of Reconcilliation (confess our sins to receive absolution) your level of Faith is sufficient to have sins resolved...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation. This is called Imperfect Contrition. Repenting because you are sorry that you offended God is called Perfect Contrition . The reason that the former is sufficient is because we are human, and not every one can muster the level of Faith and love of God that the second one demands.

I think that a corrolary to this is that if you believed simply out of fear of the potential consequences of non-belief, your belief is less than ideal but superior to non-belief and gives you a fighting chance in the Lord's eyes.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]
what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

[/ QUOTE ]

The human mind is more malleable than you might think. Yes, it is very, very improbable, and I'd be exercising a lot of creativity to come up with a series of situations that would lead to it. Nevertheless, it is not impossible. I'm sure it's happened before. With such phenomenally abstract situations such as these, it is reasonable to at least acknowledge the possibility, no matter how improbable.

May David Sklansky rape your children if you don't understand this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand and agree that circumstances can lead to conversion and athesits have "seen the light" and you or I could be subject of conversion. I was really getting at the implication that fear could make you (personaly) (or "one" if you like to abstract it) _choose_ to believe for safeties' sake rather than just finding they do believe.

As I said, if there is a fear of damnation how do you choose which religion to adopt as a rational ecercise. In fact the fear would presumably ony get overwhelming after conversion to a given faith so that is the faith you would believe in to avoid damnation. I can't see it working the other way round....all these religions say eternal damnation to non-believers so I'd better pick one to believe in.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.


[/ QUOTE ]

When us Catholic types receive the Sacrament of Reconcilliation (confess our sins to receive absolution) your level of Faith is sufficient to have sins resolved...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation. This is called Imperfect Contrition. Repenting because you are sorry that you offended God is called Perfect Contrition . The reason that the former is sufficient is because we are human, and not every one can muster the level of Faith and love of God that the second one demands.

I think that a corrolary to this is that if you believed simply out of fear of the potential consequences of non-belief, your belief is less than ideal but superior to non-belief and gives you a fighting chance in the Lord's eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a parent not only casts out, but moreover tortures his once confused child who ran away from home, is this parent worthy of love?

[Jeff V]

I laughed harder than I should have when I read this.

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
As some of you know, I'm an atheist. And somewhat serious, even proud about it.

However, there are rare occasions every here and then, sometimes when I'm by myself for a long period of time and alone with my thoughts, when I think "man, what if those Christians are right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Silent = Listen

[ QUOTE ]
What if God and Heaven and Hell are all true and I'm going to be damned for eternity unless I accept?" The worry (although, I can honestly say, it is minor) gives a brief adrenaline release, I toss it over in my mind for a few seconds, know where and why I stand on things, and then my mind goes on to something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you are in hell right now, and heaven is being the awareness that is there when you are silent, or listening?

[ QUOTE ]
In no way is this logically affirmative of Christian beliefs. This happens mostly when I am stressed. Maybe I have a lot of work to do tomorrow or I'm worried about bills; lots of irrational thoughts can occur in a person's mind when he's paranoid. Plus the righteousness and confidence of the believers, the number of the believers, all these things can activate the survival instinct in a person and make him want to do whatever is necessary to escape the potential danger. (Y2K comes to mind)

[/ QUOTE ]

When you are stressed, you have worries in your mind. The awareness is the thing that see the fear/worry so the thing that sees the worry cannot worry itself, the awareness that just sees your thoughts just sees them and naturally sees truth because truth is seeing the real or seeing the reality that is the present moment. The awareness only sees truth because the awareness is nothing but the present moment, which is reality.

[ QUOTE ]
I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then. Heck, I remember feeling the same way after a fiery discussion/debate from a guest lecturer in my Islamic Philosophy class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there is no meaning in conceptual belief because concepts are insignificant, delusions. The meaning comes from seeing the emptiness that you are then seeing that everything comes from that nothingness.

[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you try to find God, which is the same as trying to find yourself, out or some fear, you will misinterpret yourself. If you try to be anything, you will not find your Self because you already are your Self, you just think your beliefs about what you are are really you, when it is the absence of beliefs that clears the way for pure seeing, which is to see as God.

[ QUOTE ]
So here's the problem: from what I gather, "God has a plan for us." That is, love him, love his works, love what Jesus did, glorify him out of your love, and you will recieve eternal life. I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will. However, if a person can be threatened into believing in God, then I fail to see how that glorifies him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glorification of God is not the point. Would you glorify yourself? The ego glorifies the self, which is why the common interpreation is to glorify God because there is the misunderstanding about what God is. God is the thing that sees your fears/thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
Another question is why not non-existence for non-believers? Why doesn't God just obliterate the soul of an atheist upon death? Non-existence is a much, much easier concept to handle...after all, I believe that that (more or less) is my post-mortem fate! Without the terrifying threat of damnation, people would not choose Christianity out of fear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing God is realization of Self. Why would Self annihilate Self. I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well DUH.

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well DUH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Narrow and outdated, but still applicable when seen with a simple mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]
what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are wusses and those that aren't. lol

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]
what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are wusses and those that aren't. lol

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
at the moment I fear your lot are going to beat the Windies so quickly that I have to play poker for a couple of hours before the England test starts.

chez

Are you trying to find a way to bring up the ashes, in this thread? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Double Down]

Well put. The problem with the Christian idea of God is that to a great extent it makes God a human, with human worries, concerns, and emotions. I mean, we still even refer to God as a he. I'd doubt that God has a dick, let alone anything else that resembles a human being. The humanizing of the force that creates and controls everything is a very narrow minded way to look, and the danger that results is that we treat God as a parent, which creates for a relationship based on a need to appease and please, which leads to punishment for those who don't do that, which leads to fear and forced loyalty, such as how the OP would consider converting just to cover his bases.

No offense, Christians, but the idea of an all powerful God that has ego issues and needs allegiance and love from its creations makes God sound like a whiny neglected housewife. Our concept of God needs to be redefined. In fact, to believe in a God that is capable of wrath and anger sort of contradicts the idea that God is all powerful.

The whole idea about lip service to God in hopes that that'll pass for forgiveness reminds me of a great Ned Flanders quote,
"I don't get it, Reverend. I follow all of the bible, even the parts that contradict the other parts. I even keep kosher, just in case."

[Peter666]

If we define God as an all perfect being, one must conclude that a negative perception of God is incorrect. The person who believes in a faulty God does not know the real God, for if he did, surely he would find him to be infinitely perfect, all good, all loving etc.

One must therefore question the way they derived their beliefs about God because there must have been an error or many errors contributing to it.

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
One must therefore question the way they derived their beliefs about God because there must have been an error or many errors contributing to it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Most people call this "the Bible."

[Mason Hellmuth]

More importantly, if one were to accept a religion on the basis of Pascal's Wager, wouldn't it be most prudent to choose Islam? They have the most angriest god of all.

[Peter666]

That's true if you are a Protestant (particularly a fundamentalist) or uneducated.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
If we define God as an all perfect being, one must conclude that a negative perception of God is incorrect. The person who believes in a faulty God does not know the real God, for if he did, surely he would find him to be infinitely perfect, all good, all loving etc.

One must therefore question the way they derived their beliefs about God because there must have been an error or many errors contributing to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the reasoning is faulty, then one should also question the idea of a perfect god, because this notion is only arrived at through faulty reasoning.

[Double Down]

"If the reasoning is faulty, then one should also question the idea of a perfect god, because this notion is only arrived at through faulty reasoning. "

Not if God by definition is perfect

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
That's true if you are a Protestant (particularly a fundamentalist) or uneducated.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am a confirmed Catholic.

Do you deny that the Bible has errors?

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
"If the reasoning is faulty, then one should also question the idea of a perfect god, because this notion is only arrived at through faulty reasoning. "

Not if God by definition is perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitions also come from faulty reasoning.

[Peter666]

Yes. We know that the Bible is the inspired word of God and everything when taken in proper context either allegorically or literally is true, but only the Catholic Church can correctly interpret these meanings infallibly.

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. We know that the Bible is the inspired word of God and everything when taken in proper context either allegorically or literally is true, but only the Catholic Church can correctly interpret these meanings infallibly.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're being facetious here, right?

[Peter666]

Nope. You need to define what you consider an error in the Bible though because we may be talking about different things.

[ QUOTE ]
"If the reasoning is faulty, then one should also question the idea of a perfect god, because this notion is only arrived at through faulty reasoning. "

Not if God by definition is perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

If the logic is correct and the conclusion does not fit the observed facts, the premise must be wrong.

QED

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope. You need to define what you consider an error in the Bible though because we may be talking about different things.

[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] it, dude. I'm going bowling.

[Peter666]

You are describing a situation where you hypothetically believe in God, which is defined as perfect being, but which you conclude is a faulty being. Whatever that faulty being is, it is not the idea of God. It is your own faulty conception of Him.

[ QUOTE ]
but only the Catholic Church can correctly interpret these meanings infallibly.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe this, I have an indulgence to sell you.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]

You are describing a situation where you hypothetically believe in God, which is defined as perfect being, but which you conclude is a faulty being. Whatever that faulty being is, it is not the idea of God. It is your own faulty conception of Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and I'm pointing out a seeming inconsistency, and challenging people to offer a reasonable explanation, which so far no one has done.

Please don't make me argue with you until you admit to your own sexual inadequacy, as we've done in the past.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. You need to define what you consider an error in the Bible though because we may be talking about different things.

[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] it, dude. I'm going bowling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You, sir, are the smartest person in this forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Peter666]

Everything will be made crystal clear upon death so be patient.

And if you've seen the girls I have been with, truly, you would bow down and worship me as your God.

[hmkpoker]

Well let's see here...

One non-sequitur idle threat based on premises that we've repeatedly established that I don't accept, and one poorly constructed attempt at male self-aggrandizement, despite prior admitted incompetance and frustration regarding women on your behalf.

Feeling generous, I give it a C-

[Double Down]

You can't bowl tonight. It's Shomer Shabbos.

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't bowl tonight. It's Shomer Shabbos.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought we already established that I'm Muslim?

In any case, I did go bowling. And it was awesome! I rolled a right-handed 124 and a left-handed 76. However, the nitty manager shut down the lanes before the 10th frame of the second game. I know I would have broken 100!

[KeysrSoze]

[ QUOTE ]


However, there are rare occasions every here and then, sometimes when I'm by myself for a long period of time and alone with my thoughts, when I think "man, what if those Christians are right? What if God and Heaven and Hell are all true and I'm going to be damned for eternity unless I accept?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange, I do to, except my thoughts are along the line of "man, what if those Asatru are right, and if I don't die in glorious battle I'll be sent to boring Hel instead of the halls of Valhalla where I can fight and booze it up all day long. I better join the marines!"

Then again I'm funny that way.

[andyfox]

It's certainly a suburb of hell.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the Christian idea of God is that to a great extent it makes God a human, with human worries, concerns, and emotions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said! One's understanding of God is quite personal, but as someone who considers himself a Christian, I will share mine.

I agree the image of a jealous, angry God with ego issues is not very satisfying on any level. I think of God as the giver of life, the background of existence, or the potential for being. I say that God loves me simply because I exist; I suggest that the gift of existence is one given lovingly by God. God does this not because God is bored or God wants to glorify God's self by creating people to serve God, but rather because God is Love, and love creates.

We are called to worship God and nothing else because the moment we take our attention off of the fact that God has already fulfilled your being by loving you into existence, you become riddled with other desires (which, i think, inevitably lead to rivalry amongst humans as they compete for scarce resources when the only reasource they really need (God's love) is the one that is infinite).

It is probably clear that I don't believe in hell. I believe in the real negative consequences humans experiences as a result of not loving God (and one another), but I don't believe in a God that actively punishes them. That is anathema to God. I think God is all-loving, which gives God a limitless power to create, but not all-powerful, which would mean God can also destroy.

[hmkpoker]

Never been. Is it that hot?

why would god in the first place create people (or animals) who are capable of not believing in him.. have you ever seen an animal saying his prayers?

elandriel

[hmkpoker]

That is a good question, why the hell did God create animals? He could just as easily have created an ecosystem that didn't require tsetse flies and cockroaches, and he created things like deep ocean creatures that man would never even come in contact with if not for the 00ber l337 technology that would come much later.

Seems senseless to create animals for food, since God could just as easily have made meat grow on trees, plus we could just go vegan if we wanted...and the companionship thing is stupid because animals don't have souls.

Can someone explain why an "intelligent" design includes animals?

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain why an "intelligent" design includes animals?

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals? What about microbes and virii? Doesn't seem like a sign of genius or love to me!

Hell surely exists, it is called "Party Poker" today.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain why an "intelligent" design includes animals?

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals? What about microbes and virii? Doesn't seem like a sign of genius or love to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell we could ask about tornadoes and hurricanes too /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I think the giraffe is evidence that God likes to do tripped-out drugs ^_^