errrrrrr?

[durrrr]

UTG would raise with a pocket pair preflop i believe (from what i've seen), and wouldnt valuebet a hand worse than KK on the river im fairly certain. Also i doubt he raises a fullhouse on the turn. On the river 57 is possible, i dont think 79 or 9t pushes, because he'd hope it was good. My reads could be off here...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed)


UTG ($3214)
MP1 ($2463)
MP2 ($1773.50)
CO ($1980)
Button ($1940)
Hero ($3311.60)
BB ($1980)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $10.
UTG calls $20, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $90</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $80.

Flop: ($220) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $180</font>, UTG calls $180.

Turn: ($580) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $420</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1200</font>, Hero calls $780.

River: ($2980) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets 1734</font>, Hero calls $1734.

Final Pot: $6448


Hows it look?

[bigt2k4]

check call turn, dont bet draw on paired board &amp; wtf is with callin the river?????

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
check call turn, dont bet draw on paired board &amp; wtf is with callin the river?????

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand can he have that beats A hi?
The turn bet is probably 50/50 for me- it needs to be done at least occasionally.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
What hand can he have that beats A hi?


[/ QUOTE ]
are you serious? so he can only be on a draw or air here?

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hand can he have that beats A hi?


[/ QUOTE ]
are you serious? so he can only be on a draw or air here?

[/ QUOTE ]

no... i think theres a few that beat A hi... but very few. 56h or something like it was a distinct possibility too.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hand can he have that beats A hi?


[/ QUOTE ]
are you serious? so he can only be on a draw or air here?

[/ QUOTE ]

no... i think theres a few that beat A hi... but very few. 56h or something like it was a distinct possibility too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, didnt know the 5-10's were so juicy.

[creedofhubris]

That river call is chip spewing barring a supergood read.

Everything except smaller diamonds beats you. Reasonable straight draws either got there or paired on the river.

[Allinlife]

explain your turn call please

I'm just curious as to the results.

I love bragging posts.

[SpaceAce]

I imagine the results here are going to show that you made a brilliant call on the river but to me, it still looks like you're barfing chips all over the table. His all-in on the river could easily be the value bet you say he only makes with KK or better: it's only a bit over 1/2 the pot.

Of course, you know more about the situation than I do. I've made river calls that don't look right on the hand history but felt right at the time.

SpaceAce

[AEKDBet]

IF

you are going to make that hyooooooge call on the river, why not block the river.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
IF

you are going to make that hyooooooge call on the river, why not block the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes supposed to block for 1/4 pot?

blocker on river is just silly.

[amoeba]

pushing the turn after the raise is much better than calling and check calling the river.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
Hows it look?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling this river looks like super donkey tilty play.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
block the river

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean disconnection or sth ? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
you are going to make that hyooooooge call on the river, why not block the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
his stack isn't deep enough.

i just don't see a call on the river here? big hand, made a play at the pot without having to make your hand and it didn't work out...move on. no need to try to make chicken salad out of chicken [censored].

[Imperial]

[ QUOTE ]
check call turn, dont bet draw on paired board &amp; wtf is with callin the river?????

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The way you played it i fold to the turn raise.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing the turn after the raise is much better than calling and check calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
i doubt he raises a fullhouse on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you think this is the case, why did u not move in?
seriously?
i almost always push or fold the turn here.

also, maybe youd like to explain why u dont think this guy would be playing a full like this, cause i dont see any reason why the vast majority of players couldnt play 66 this way...

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i doubt he raises a fullhouse on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you think this is the case, why did u not move in?
seriously?
i almost always push or fold the turn here.

also, maybe youd like to explain why u dont think this guy would be playing a full like this, cause i dont see any reason why the vast majority of players couldnt play 66 this way...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many players play a full like this... but this guy didnt seem to be the type- from previous hands. I could be wrong- but i really didnt think he'd ever have a FH. I figured his turn raise was either some weirdly played AA or a bluff... he showed 23o on the river to drag a 6.5k pot. Was just curious if anyone else thought this looked like a call... On the turn I expected he had something like TT or A8; which would probably call if i pushed (he forgot to install his fold button, as evident by the fact that he called w/ 23o preflop), but was raising for a free river check behind. When he pushed i was almost positive he had AA+ or a bluff... and I thought i was ahead of this range vs. this player. Would need more hands vs him to know if it was the right call or not.

FWIW i dont make brag posts- doesnt mean i wouldnt post this if i won; but i've made enough big calls- i only post them if i find them especially interesting (like losing 175bb on A high). Im surprised that no one else even thought about this call being right (not saying it was, but i think there are times/situations where big calls are justified).

[Jason Strasser]

Hmm.

I'm not sure what I think. I do think, though, that a deuce is very possible card here. I agree you arent going to see JJ-KK here much, and that you are very likely looking at some sort of missed draw/bluff or a boat/2 a vast majority of the time.

A lot of the people here who can't get their heads around making calls like this aren't good poker players, that is all. One thing you have to remember though is that once a good opponent knows you are capable of a call like this, things can get v interesting.

-Jason

[Yeti]

Don't like it.

[Jason Strasser]

Why don't you go play durrr heads up then?
-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything except smaller diamonds beats you. Reasonable straight draws either got there or paired on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How clueless can this post be?

If you know 1 player who is valuebetting a rivered 9 here against a virtual unknown, then show me. I think the last hand i expect to see here is 9T/79.

Once an opponent sees durr make a call like this, then maybe we can start to talk about a very thin value bet, but hardly anyone with a 9 makes this bet, unless they think they are bluffing and on this board that is absurd.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

Good post yeti

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]

you are going to make that hyooooooge call on the river, why not block the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

Block the river?

Is everyone here losing their minds?

Block the river against what???? The same player that he is calling with a high is the same that might come over the top of the block bet... and also, what exactly calls this block bet that durr is ahead of? I think a block bet is putrid idea.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the people here who can't get their heads around making calls like this aren't good poker players, that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who am I to disagree with such an authority /images/graemlins/frown.gif
I still hate calling but I will think hard about any post like this to better understand these situations.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
Also i doubt he raises a fullhouse on the turn. On the river 57 is possible

[/ QUOTE ]

If he thinks he can eke out $2500 more in value from your ace-high, I'd say it's plausible.

[Jason Strasser]

I think pushing or folding the turn is a good plan if your hand didnt have showdown value. I this case, if durr feels like most of his equity in the hand is going to be snapping off a bluff/missed draw, then he should go ahead and call.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

The point is that you are saying:

"OMG U CALLED off xxx dollars with ace high!" Instead of actually analytically coming up with a decision on how to play the hand.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

I agree. I think durr is probably looking at a 2 or FH more than his analysis suggests.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also i doubt he raises a fullhouse on the turn. On the river 57 is possible

[/ QUOTE ]

If he thinks he can eke out $2500 more in value from your ace-high, I'd say it's plausible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Donkeys dont think. This wasnt against a good player. Im not trying to argue that my line was right (if i was really certain it was/wasnt i wouldnt post it); rather I'm saying its something to think about- however almost no1 in this thread has thought about this call possibly being correct. I was almost positive that AK was good &gt; 95% of the time that AA was good here (the 5% coming from 56h kind of hands) Who calls w/ AA here?

Strasser for your great defense here I hope that you also make these calls.

80% of time you are looking at a boat.

10% less than a boat.

10% air.

Hope you guess right.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I think durr is probably looking at a 2 or FH more than his analysis suggests.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think i almost never see a non-99 full house here. Opponent was ridiculously trap-happy.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Strasser for your great defense here I hope that you also make these calls.

80% of time you are looking at a boat.

10% less than a boat.

10% air.

Hope you guess right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its pretty obvious imo that strasser didnt like my line. I think he was simply trying to think about it though.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost positive that AK was good &gt; 95% of the time that AA was good here (the 5% coming from 56h kind of hands) Who calls w/ AA here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget KK and worse but I agree that those are v unlikely. This is the key pt when justifying this type of call.

[Jason Strasser]

Great analysis, really.

I also really never said I'd call here. I'm just saying a lot of people in this thread are way off.

[Yeti]

I just made an ass of myself with a post. I re-read it like 6 times looking for mistakes, and failed to see it. I am going insane. I will return with more thoughts in a minute.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
I just made an ass of myself with a post. I re-read it like 6 times looking for mistakes, and failed to see it. I am going insane. I will return with more thoughts in a minute.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. I was about to comment on it but it's nice to see when posters will admit their mistake.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]


Don't forget KK and worse but I agree that those are v unlikely. This is the key pt when justifying this type of call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea still not saying this call was correct... really good chance it wasn't. I feel like a genius if he shows AJo tho /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jason Strasser]

Well this is fairly important, and imo the decision to call fold comes down to (obviously) how often this type of opponent is going to have a 2, FH, or maybe straight here. If you are going to go out and make this strange read on the opponent I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for out here. Even trap happy opponents understand they need to make big pots w big hands.

To everyone else who posted in this thread i think the key pt is that this call with AK is virtually the same as with AA. So get your head around that if you are like "OMG he CALLED W ACE HIGH"

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I think durr is probably looking at a 2 or FH more than his analysis suggests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, I agree with this.

It's fine to sit here afterwards and agree with your analysis (which looks pretty good), but at the end of the day, he played it exactly like a not-great player would play a set when sat with semi-deep stacks. There aren't that many opponents on Party who are firing again on the river here with nothing. Unless you have a read on him as extremely agressive, I'd toss it.

Ah, I dunno. I'm going insane thanks to a creaking pipe. Gnight!

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]

To everyone else who posted in this thread i think the key pt is that this call with AK is virtually the same as with AA. So get your head around that if you are like "OMG he CALLED W ACE HIGH"

[/ QUOTE ]

hey strassa, you've made this point before and I've agreed with you before. I think understanding bluffcatchers - ie Ace high = AA is important. but there's one minute detail maybe to consider;
the fact Durr holds both Ace and King of the flush draw on board a. makes it less likely (albeit small %) villain is bluffing that draw, and b. the small % of times villain thinks he's bluffing (like a small pair somehow) which AA does beat but AK does not.

Still, on the whole, I agree with what you say.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

To everyone else who posted in this thread i think the key pt is that this call with AK is virtually the same as with AA. So get your head around that if you are like "OMG he CALLED W ACE HIGH"

[/ QUOTE ]



hey strassa, you've made this point before and I've agreed with you before. I think understanding bluffcatchers - ie Ace high = AA is important. but there's one minute detail maybe to consider;
the fact Durr holds both Ace and King of the flush draw on board a. makes it less likely (albeit small %) villain is bluffing that draw, and b. the small % of times villain thinks he's bluffing (like a small pair somehow) which AA does beat but AK doesnot.

Still, on the whole, I agree with what you say.

[/ QUOTE ]I think i was wrong in my earlier post... I should have said AK is good &gt; 90% of the time that AA is good, not 95%. I think the hands are very similar tho.

[Allinlife]

I understand what strasser is trying to say, but I think you have to factor in the times when people call with things like mid pair/bottm pair in position to catch 6 outers against likely "high pair hands" and bluff straights and flushes

I'd say if AA is good 100%, AK is good 80%ish

[TheWorstPlayer]

I agree with this completely. Give Hero A3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I like this call better. The fact that he has the K of trump, too, is a fairly strong factor against villain having the flush draw. These guys love to call preflop with hands like KQs and KJs KTs. What's he supposed to have here? QJs? You having the K really cuts down on the options.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
K of trump

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif heh do you play bridge TWP ?

[EnderW27]

I've read the thread so I know the results. But here's a bit of analysis. I'm doing top of the head math as one would at the table rather than seriously calculating this out.

First, let me turn it around a bit.
Given his trips on the turn, I think he made a mistake in the amount of his raise on the turn. Either you have a high pair or you're on a flush draw, one of two possible out there. So he knows for certain he's ahead right now and if you have a high pair you're coming along for the ride no matter how high he raises. But if you're drawing his raise just priced you in to your draw, getting what? 3-1 on your money for the call?
So I think the amount of his turn raise is too low.

But you probably don't care about that. So let's talk about the river. To call his bet he needs to have whiffed his hand ~35% of the time. That's about the price we're talking about, right? 1700 to win 4700. What are the chances?
You raised PF, fired away on the flop, fired again on the turn and called his raise! To me that says "I have something and you're not chasing me away that easily." If I were your opponent I would not be firing in the last of my stack in this situation on a total bluff 35% of the time.

Here's my point:
Maybe you had a good understanding of how this opponent worked and he would make that play but I think a bluff here has to be -ev and therefore I think a call here hoping your opponent is on a total bluff must also be -ev.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think a bluff here has to be -ev and therefore I think a call here hoping your opponent is on a total bluff must also be -ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

This part of your reasoning is way off. Doesnt mean your wrong...

He played bad, that was a main part of this- i could call a good player w/ AK here b/c they could be bluffing w/ 78/9T etc.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Of course, but that expression is used fairly widely on here, I think.