Never Draw to an Inside Straight [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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binions

11-19-2005, 05:34 PM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button raises, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button caps, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

River: (21.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

The key was calling 2 bets back to me preflop. I was getting over 6:1 on the call, and 64s is 3.7:1 to flop a 2 pair or better made hand + at least an 8 out draw.

On the flop, I figured I had 5-6 outs with the gutshot and backdoor flush draw. Thankfully, the guy who flopped a set merely check-called the flop so I got to see the turn getting 20:1 odds. Gotta love 2-4 players.

The rest is history - I get called a "moron" for playing "trash", etc.

bobhalford

11-19-2005, 05:56 PM

Even if it was 2 bets to you on the flop you would have been able to call getting 10-1 to hit a 5. But then there are 10 cards to beat you on the river. nh

11-19-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The rest is history - I get called a "moron" for playing "trash", etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
They just hataz wiff no post flop skillz.

PokerBob

11-19-2005, 06:51 PM

fold preflop....twice.

sy_or_bust

11-19-2005, 07:05 PM

the preflop limp is pretty bad.

Redd

11-19-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop....twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this.

11-19-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was getting over 6:1 on the call, and 64s is 3.7:1 to flop a 2 pair or better made hand + at least an 8 out draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, explain this?

PITTM

11-19-2005, 08:04 PM

this post sucked. as a result. i ask that you please stop using my avatar. thx. <3

rj

Yako

11-19-2005, 08:32 PM

Pittm, yours is better, it's closer up.
Everyone else, don't be fooled by a clear fake! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

binions

11-19-2005, 10:37 PM

You can fold in the cutoff with a suited 1 gapper after 2 limpers if you don't like money. I mean, what the hell are you waiting for?

As I said, with a suited 1 gapper you are 3.7:1 to flop:

2 pair,
trips,
a boat,
4 of a kind,
a straight,
a flush,
an 8 out straight draw on an unpaired board that is not 3 flush against you, or
a 9 out flush draw on an unpaired board

I assume all of you agree those are flops worth playing in a multiway pot in good position.

With 2 limpers plus the blinds, I am getting 3.5:1 on the call, almost exactly 3.7:1. My good position makes up for the difference, plus the likelihood the SB completes.

When it comes back to me, it is $4 to call with $25 in the pot - 6.25:1. Again, you can fold a suited 1 gapper for $4 in good position with a monster multiway pot brewing, but only if you hate money.

binions

11-19-2005, 10:42 PM

Suited Max Stretch 1-Gap (QT-53)
0.84% flop a flush
0.92% flop straight w/o 3 flush board
10.94% flop 4 flush
5.29% flop clean 8 out straight draw
1.85% flop clean 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
21.29% = 3.70 to 1 against

PITTM

11-22-2005, 11:49 PM

great points! now get a new avatar...

rj

ZenMusician

11-22-2005, 11:52 PM

But his loop lis longer! And...neither of you have revealed
the identity of said shaking girl.

-ZEN

Oh, and on the poker thingy...NH

masse75

11-22-2005, 11:56 PM

Congrats on getting lucky. I call the 1 bet preflop, fold after the raise and 3 bet.

Once you're in, I think the play is fine.

11-23-2005, 12:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
great points! now get a new avatar...

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you both get new avatars!!! Everytime I see one of your posts, I have to stare for atleast 5 mins! They just keep going and going.

RatFink

11-23-2005, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Suited Max Stretch 1-Gap (QT-53)
0.84% flop a flush
0.92% flop straight w/o 3 flush board
10.94% flop 4 flush
5.29% flop clean 8 out straight draw
1.85% flop clean 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
21.29% = 3.70 to 1 against

[/ QUOTE ]

Having the best hand at showdown of those 21.29% hands: ~ 4%
Joy and elation reading the chat box when that 4% comes through: Priceless

PITTM

11-23-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But his loop lis longer! And...neither of you have revealed
the identity of said shaking girl.

-ZEN

Oh, and on the poker thingy...NH

[/ QUOTE ]

I WOULD NEVER REVEAL ANYTHING ABOUT HER! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=exchange&Number=3766471&S earchpage=5&Main=3387916&Words=PITTM&topic=&Search =true#Post3766471)

rj

tpir90036

11-23-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop....twice.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand why people might advocate folding when it's two back around pre-flop (I wouldn't).... but what's wrong with the first time?

11-23-2005, 01:12 AM

I think 64s is going to be extremely difficult to play profitably, especially as only 2 players have already limped in. So I'd fold preflop, and two back to you I think it's also a fold. Post flop was played fine IMO.

The Goober

11-23-2005, 06:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Suited Max Stretch 1-Gap (QT-53)
0.84% flop a flush
0.92% flop straight w/o 3 flush board
10.94% flop 4 flush
5.29% flop clean 8 out straight draw
1.85% flop clean 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
21.29% = 3.70 to 1 against

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this makes sense. Suppose you have a backfloor flush draw. There are 10 turn cards that will give you a clean 9 out draw (21%) - by your logic this means you should call a flop with only the backdoor draw if you are getting better than 4:1 odds?

Pog0

11-23-2005, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this makes sense. Suppose you have a backfloor flush draw. There are 10 turn cards that will give you a clean 9 out draw (21%) - by your logic this means you should call a flop with only the backdoor draw if you are getting better than 4:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. He's got 3.7:1 to make a hand that could make a winner, he's a lot worse off than 3.7:1 to actually win. With that said, first preflop call is terrible.

binions

11-23-2005, 11:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suited Max Stretch 1-Gap (QT-53)
0.84% flop a flush
0.92% flop straight w/o 3 flush board
10.94% flop 4 flush
5.29% flop clean 8 out straight draw
1.85% flop clean 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
21.29% = 3.70 to 1 against

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this makes sense. Suppose you have a backfloor flush draw. There are 10 turn cards that will give you a clean 9 out draw (21%) - by your logic this means you should call a flop with only the backdoor draw if you are getting better than 4:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense because you are getting the right price to flop a hand that you would ram and jam on the flop multiway. In other words, your pot equity is so high on these flops that you'll usually be making money with every bet that goes in the pot over the long haul no matter if you win the particular hand. See SSHE for further detail.

CallMeIshmael

11-23-2005, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, with a suited 1 gapper you are 3.7:1 to flop:

2 pair,
trips,
a boat,
4 of a kind,
a straight,
a flush,
an 8 out straight draw on an unpaired board that is not 3 flush against you, or
a 9 out flush draw on an unpaired board

With 2 limpers plus the blinds, I am getting 3.5:1 on the call, almost exactly 3.7:1. My good position makes up for the difference, plus the likelihood the SB completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without weighing in on whether or not I agree with the call, simply because there is a 3.7:1 shot at hitting a set of flops doesnt mean you need 3.7:1 to play the hand preflop.

Certainly there is a relationship between the two figures, but it is not 1:1. You are simplyfying the math with incorrect assumptions.

This (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=micro&Number=2121253& Searchpage=1&Main=2120690&Words=+CallMeIshmael&top ic=&Search=true#Post2121253) might help.

The Goober

11-24-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think this makes sense. Suppose you have a backfloor flush draw. There are 10 turn cards that will give you a clean 9 out draw (21%) - by your logic this means you should call a flop with only the backdoor draw if you are getting better than 4:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense because you are getting the right price to flop a hand that you would ram and jam on the flop multiway. In other words, your pot equity is so high on these flops that you'll usually be making money with every bet that goes in the pot over the long haul no matter if you win the particular hand. See SSHE for further detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read SSHE (many times) and I understand the concept of jamming with a draw. However, for it to be true that you are "making money with every bet that goes in the pot" then you must be a favorite to win the hand - generally when you are jamming with a draw it's because you are making money with the cumulative bets that are going in.

But back to my example, you didn't answer my question. Do you think that its correct to call a flop bet with only a backdoor flush draw, getting 4:1 pot odds? (assuming for the sake of argument that the only way you can win is to make your flush)

binions

11-24-2005, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't think this makes sense. Suppose you have a backfloor flush draw. There are 10 turn cards that will give you a clean 9 out draw (21%) - by your logic this means you should call a flop with only the backdoor draw if you are getting better than 4:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense because you are getting the right price to flop a hand that you would ram and jam on the flop multiway. In other words, your pot equity is so high on these flops that you'll usually be making money with every bet that goes in the pot over the long haul no matter if you win the particular hand. See SSHE for further detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read SSHE (many times) and I understand the concept of jamming with a draw. However, for it to be true that you are "making money with every bet that goes in the pot" then you must be a favorite to win the hand - generally when you are jamming with a draw it's because you are making money with the cumulative bets that are going in.

But back to my example, you didn't answer my question. Do you think that its correct to call a flop bet with only a backdoor flush draw, getting 4:1 pot odds? (assuming for the sake of argument that the only way you can win is to make your flush)

[/ QUOTE ]

When there are 4+ people putting in money on the flop, and you have a 32-35% chance to hit your hand (or if you flopped a made hand and are ahead), you are making money on every bet that goes in the pot on that flop even if you aren't a favorite to win the hand.

As for your question, a backdoor flush draw is worth 1-1.5 outs. I rarely call a bet with a backdoor flush draw alone. Sometimes, I will raise if I have combination of weak draws, to get a free card or buy a couple of outs (ie get a bigger Ace to fold). Sometimes, I will simply call with a combination of weak draws if I am getting a good price.

Your analogy of 3.7:1 to hit the flop vs. 4:1 to hit a draw on the turn is inapt for at least two reasons. First, the 3.7:1 includes hitting made hands, not just draws. Second, with 2 to come multiway, you have the chance for a pot equity ram and jam with a draw. Not so on the turn with 1 to come.

By the way, suited 0-gappers are 3.2:1 to flop good, suited 2-gappers are 4.4:1. A suited disconnected hand is 12% to flop a flush or 4 flush + 3% to flop 2 pair, trips, boat, quads = 15% = 5.6:1 against. This is why you call from the small blind with any 2 suited cards when there are at least 2 limpers - you are getting 7:1 on the call with great implied odds, and 4-way+ there will usually be enough money in the pot to justify going to the river with a flush draw.

11-24-2005, 02:41 AM

The original call--64s--was a mistake,as Slansky & Miller point out in their book [they do endorse playing "any two suited" from the blinds"].Calling raises with this hand completely ignores pot odds. I dispute the assertion that 64s is 3.7:1 to flop any kind of hand or good draw. you won the money by luck.