this god is not worth reverence.

[chessforlife]

"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]

The only men condemned to Hell are those who choose to be there.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]
People who believe in a god like that, reveal a lot about themselves and have a very low opinion of the god they supposedly believe in.

God will reserve his greatest punishment for them. I've checked with my god and the plan is to have them in 'eternal' hell until they come to understand for themselves that as god is good it must be a bluff.

chez

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]

The only men condemned to Hell are those who choose to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not christian doctrine...so on whose behalf are you speaking?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]


The only men condemned to Hell are those who choose to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not christian doctrine...so on whose behalf are you speaking?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely Catholic doctrine. Hell is reserved for those who choose to separate themselves from God through Mortal Sin and fail to repent.

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]


The only men condemned to Hell are those who choose to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not christian doctrine...so on whose behalf are you speaking?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely Catholic doctrine. Hell is reserved for those who choose to separate themselves from God through Mortal Sin and fail to repent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought Catholics believed one can only get to heaven through belief in Christ. Is this wrong?

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"A god that would punish a man by putting him in an eternal sub-terranian dungeon for not believing in him, is worthy of no man's reverence."

Alan Watts (paraphrazed)

[/ QUOTE ]


The only men condemned to Hell are those who choose to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not christian doctrine...so on whose behalf are you speaking?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely Catholic doctrine. Hell is reserved for those who choose to separate themselves from God through Mortal Sin and fail to repent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought Catholics believed one can only get to heaven through belief in Christ. Is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

We believe that one can attain Heaven with a combination of Faith and Good Works. My main point is that the opportunity to go to Heaven is for everyone, and those who don't go to Heaven choose not to have the Faith or perform the Good Works that are demanded.

[r3vbr]

What does god do with people who never had the catholic doctrine taught to them (indians/people in africa or isolated places, or people of other religions, china, muslims, etc) do they go to hell as well? What if they follow the rules (not have sex for pleasure, not lie, not kill, not have abortions, etc) but at the same time dont believe in christ. Will they go to heaven just for following the rules? Is there middle term, or is it just paradise/hell?

What happens to childrem who die before they learn to talk and before they learn the catholic faith (their parents are the most 100% devoted christians etc..)

[Bigdaddydvo]

This is from Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium of the 2nd Vatican Council...pretty self explanatory.

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

[Stu Pidasso]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> What if they follow the rules (not have sex for pleasure.....) </pre><hr />

Catholics believe the primary purpose of sex is procreation and a secondary purpose is for pleasure. A married Catholic couple can have as much sex for pleasure as they want they just can't take artificial steps to eliminate the primary purpose of sex(i.e. artificial birth control).

Stu

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> What if they follow the rules (not have sex for pleasure.....) </pre><hr />

Catholics believe the primary purpose of sex is procreation and a secondary purpose is for pleasure. A married Catholic couple can have as much sex for pleasure as they want they just can't take artificial steps to eliminate the primary purpose of sex(i.e. artificial birth control).

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't quite right. Catholic Doctrine teaches that there is are dual, equally important purposes of sex for a married couple: Unitive and Procreative. Unitive means that the couple gives themselves to each other in their entirity, holding nothing back (fertility included), thus becoming closer to each other and to God. The 2nd piece, procreative, means that Catholic couples must be open to bringing Children into the world. I think Stu's post unitentionally downplays the Unitive aspect. Remember, the married couples that suffer from infertility are free and encouraged by the Church to engage in the marital act as often as they'd like, (the Unitive aspect at work)

[ QUOTE ]
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6


[/ QUOTE ]

If a non- christian follows the commands of his conscious, (and therefore does good all his life), does it matter which God he sincerely seeks after? If he accidently seeks after the wrong one, will he still go to heaven?

Heya bigdaddydvo,

[ QUOTE ]
Catholic Doctrine teaches that there is are dual, equally important purposes of sex for a married couple: Unitive and Procreative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't be better to have the Unitive principle at work more universally. Rather than restricted to a married couple lets be Unitive with as many as we can. Seems like a jolly good thing to me. With good contraception we could keep the Procreative for married or otherwise committed couple.

It seems to me that this might make the world a better place if not just a more enjoyable one.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
If a non- christian follows the commands of his conscious, (and therefore does good all his life), does it matter which God he sincerely seeks after? If he accidently seeks after the wrong one, will he still go to heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

The best answer anyone can give you is God will judge this man fairly.

Stu

[ QUOTE ]
The best answer anyone can give you is God will judge this man fairly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just, let make sure that we don't define the world "fairly" as it may undermine the church authority or your self-righteousness.

I mean, really, it doesn't matter which god and you still could be saved. Hell, no! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is from Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium of the 2nd Vatican Council...pretty self explanatory.

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's not that self-explanatory at all. What about those who were raised under a polytheistic religion? Do they all go to hell? How about deists? And those who died still too young to have any faith? Or too mentally handicapped to believe, etc?

Don't expect coherent answers to questions like these. The Christian who believes his particular religion is the key to paradise is faced with the following dilemma: If his "god" is good by any reasonable standard, then belief in his (or any) particular religion is unnecessary for salvation. Conversely, if *any* type of belief is one of the requirements for salvation, then his "god" emerges as hideously evil.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
...as god is good it must be a bluff.


[/ QUOTE ]

A bluff wouldn't be terribly good unless it serves some noble purpose... I'd say it's a cryptic message of goodness badly misinterpreted and often misused and abused by fallible humans.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...as god is good it must be a bluff.


[/ QUOTE ]

A bluff wouldn't be terribly good unless it serves some noble purpose... I'd say it's a cryptic message of goodness badly misinterpreted and often misused and abused by fallible humans.

[/ QUOTE ]
The point would be to put someone in a position where they see how unfair their punishment is and then to realise that it can't be the product of goodness. Thereby they learn what being good means. I suspect with some people it would take a long time, but most will probably get there after a few billion years.

What noble purpose could any god have other than giving us the joy of appreciating something for ourselves?

chez