Advice to people stuck @ the small stakes too long

[me454555]

I noticed there was a post a couple days ago about people who were stuck @ the low limits too long. It can be very frustrating to keep playing and not feel like you're good enough to brake into the middle limits. I think one of the best ways to improve your poker skill and hone the skills needed to play at the higher limits is to try playing 6 max and other short handed poker.

When playing 6 max, you are forced to push smaller edges and focus on your blind stealing and blind defense. These are 2 aspects that are extremely important when you move up the stakes. Once you make it past the small stakes, pushing smaller edges becomes more crucial b/c the knowlege gap between your competition decreases significantly. It is important to learn these skills and its nice to be able to learn them @ levels comparable to what you are playing now.

Another benefit of SH is that the players will have higher aggrssion levels. This is another thing you will have to adjust to once you move up the limits and its a lot cheaper ot play SH 3/6 than 15/30 full ring.

I've been playing SH for the last few months and recently switch back to full ring for a change of pace. Its truely amazing how much better my game has become b/c of the experience. I highly recommend learning to play SH before moving up to higher limits, I think it makes the transition a lot easier

[mtdoak]

I will concur with this. Shorthanded makes full decisions easier, quicker, and better. After almost 20k 6 max hands, i was forced to do some bankroll rebuilding @ 2/4 full. Like tissue paper, like tissue paper.

[rmarotti]

SHHHHHHHH. I don't want all these SS ubergrinders invading my SH games.

[TheHammer24]

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I will concur with this. Shorthanded makes full decisions easier, quicker, and better. After almost 20k 6 max hands, i was forced to do some bankroll rebuilding @ 2/4 full. Like tissue paper, like tissue paper.

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I'm confused. Did you get crushed SH?

I'd like to play SH, but I don't want to move up to 3/6 6 max or down to 1/2 6 max. So I'm content with a real good winrate at 2/4 Full.

[meep_42]

5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

[bottomset]

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I will concur with this. Shorthanded makes full decisions easier, quicker, and better. After almost 20k 6 max hands, i was forced to do some bankroll rebuilding @ 2/4 full. Like tissue paper, like tissue paper.

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I'm confused. Did you get crushed SH?

I'd like to play SH, but I don't want to move up to 3/6 6 max or down to 1/2 6 max. So I'm content with a real good winrate at 2/4 Full.

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2/4 stars and absolute both have 6max

and very often good games .. and 3/6 6max is more profitable than 2/4

[lighterjobs]

I think the main reason I don't play shorthanded is because I got crushed playing 2/4 6max (-250 bb's in a little over a week, my entire bankroll). this was when I was much less experienced and playing with a short roll so I might give it another shot one of these days, but I'm running pretty well right now to change it up. maybe when I'm starting to get below 1bb/100.

[cold_cash]

I started out playing full games.

Now I play exculsively shorthanded.

The reason I'm stuck playing low limit is that I suck at both.

[SamIAm]

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I'm running pretty well right now to change it up. maybe when I'm starting to get below 1bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]Wow. Are you really saying that you've gotta play the rush?
-Sam

[bottomset]

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I think the main reason I don't play shorthanded is because I got crushed playing 2/4 6max (-250 bb's in a little over a week, my entire bankroll). this was when I was much less experienced and playing with a short roll so I might give it another shot one of these days, but I'm running pretty well right now to change it up. maybe when I'm starting to get below 1bb/100.

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you went straight to 2/4 6max with just 250BB and didn't stop till it was all gone?? couple really dumb choices there

1/2 6max is super soft, .5/1 6max is also soft as hell .. both would have made a better starting point for 6max(especially when you weren't rolled for 2/4 full in the first place)

[AlexHoops]

I've got this cycle that I've become accustomed to. Start with 1800,build it up to 3000 at 3/6 full, jump to 5/10 and drop down to 2000. Go back to 3/6 full, grind it up to 3500, jump to 5/10 shorthanded (3/6 shorthanded would have been the more informed choice) and drop back down to 1800. I currently have 2960, approaching the 300bb point for 5/10...

My winrate at 3/6 full is 2.9bb/hand for over 20k hands. I feel that I am outplaying my opponents at 3/6 but with every hand that I won today I felt myself getting closer and closer to starting this cycle over.

Perhaps I will take your advice and play some 3/6 shorthanded when I reach $3000.

Alex, you might consider going from $3/6 full ring to $2/4 6max (if you play where they have $2/4 6max).

The skill level needed to beat 6max seems to be equivalent to one level higher than that needed to beat full ring.

[brettbrettr]

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5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

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too many things scare you, imo.

[me454555]

1st of all, beating 6 max isn't THAT tough but you've gotta give yourself a fighting chance. The biggest mistake I see most of the new players make is that they understimate variance. 300 bbs is plenty to play full ring but in 6 max, 300bbs is NOTHING. You can go on 100 bb swings in 1k hands easily and 200bb swings are somewhat common as well. If I were to attack a 6max game, I'd want a minimum of 500 bbs and prolly more like 750 so I could lose 250 w/out sweating it.

Actually, the reason I moved back to full ring is b/c I was unhappy w/my win rate at 6max although it was better than 1bb/100 and wanted to take a little break. Its a very stressful game, you either feast or famine and its something that takes getting used to. For the record, I think full ring is more profitable b/c the rake is about .5bbs/100 hands less but the skills you learn in SH will help immensely at full ring. Its something worth learning and something that can significantly help out your game if you are stuck below 15/30.

[TheHammer24]

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I've got this cycle that I've become accustomed to. Start with 1800,build it up to 3000 at 3/6 full, jump to 5/10 and drop down to 2000. Go back to 3/6 full, grind it up to 3500, jump to 5/10 shorthanded (3/6 shorthanded would have been the more informed choice) and drop back down to 1800. I currently have 2960, approaching the 300bb point for 5/10...

My winrate at 3/6 full is 2.9bb/hand for over 20k hands. I feel that I am outplaying my opponents at 3/6 but with every hand that I won today I felt myself getting closer and closer to starting this cycle over.

Perhaps I will take your advice and play some 3/6 shorthanded when I reach $3000.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I stay at 2/4 Full. I'm winning at 3BB/100, all shots at the higher limits have failed so far, and I would still have to be a 1.5/100 winrate at 3/6 for it to be more profitable. 2/4 is just more profitable for me, I don't really have any ambitions to move up to 30/60, I'm content with making $30 an hour at 2/4

[me454555]

1.5 bbs/100 @ 3/6 is NOT hard at all. I'm running aroudn 2.5 bbs/100 and I know people running at much more. Its not about dreams of playing 30/60, its just about getting better at poker

[lighterjobs]

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I think the main reason I don't play shorthanded is because I got crushed playing 2/4 6max (-250 bb's in a little over a week, my entire bankroll). this was when I was much less experienced and playing with a short roll so I might give it another shot one of these days, but I'm running pretty well right now to change it up. maybe when I'm starting to get below 1bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

you went straight to 2/4 6max with just 250BB and didn't stop till it was all gone?? couple really dumb choices there

1/2 6max is super soft, .5/1 6max is also soft as hell .. both would have made a better starting point for 6max(especially when you weren't rolled for 2/4 full in the first place)

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yeah i made a lot of stupid choices when i started playing cards. i moved down to 1/2 full when i got to 100 bb's. i think playing 6max just intimidates me now.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I just don't make a big deal about moving up. I will always play the best game going unless I have less than 100bbs for that game(The games I usually end up playing put me at around 350bb). If there are no good games going I have no problem playing 2/4 if need be. I started at 2c/4c and moved up whenever I had enough and the games are good. I think the big mistake is people here "take shots" which more or less means they win some money and go sit in a higher game, regardless of how good it is. I can't think of a better way to lose. Seriouly, what do the stakes matter? The #1 criteria is how good the game is. My winrate in the games I sit in is almost always higher than normal WRs. Since I only play in good games it allows me to play on a little shorter br, and if it goes south I don't have problems with tilt and dropping to the lower game doesn't bother me. Also I'm a giant luckbox and that helps a lot, but I'm sure a part of that is that I always play in good games on some sort of bonus which gives me the highest WR possible at all times.

[Moozh]

I've played against you quite a bit at 3/6 short. You're a very solid winning player. You should know this too. Push yourself to try and move up. You can beat the games and you're only costing yourself money by not trying.

Would you recommend lowering limits starting out?

[MisterKing]

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5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

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Yeah, meep, I've got you with solid stats in my PT as well... to quote Rob Schneider's idiot character in Waterboy, "Youuuu can doooo it!"

I've found that I have more success at SH games than full games. What does that mean??

[me454555]

Over how many hands of each?

[me454555]

Finding the best game does not mean making the most $$. I can beat a .02/04 game for 10 bbs/100 but I can beat a 3/6 game for 2 bbs/100 and the winrate isn't even close.

My post isn't meant for those of you who are happy grinding out a few extra $$/hr @ 2/4 or 3/6. It was meant for those who desire to move up the limits and develop their poker skills beyond what they need to do @ the LLs

[me454555]

All depends on your roll and comfort level. I'd recommend a minimum of 500BBs to play b/c swings of +/- 100BBs are very common and 200+ BB swings are also somewhat common. I'd start @ 3/6 if you have the roll for it but starting @ 1/2 is fine too. The key is just to get comfortable and move up to 3/6 or 5/10 6 max.

To succeed at these games you will have to learn the finer points of blind stealing and defending. These skills will serve you well when you decide to switch back to full ring and climb up to 10/20 and up.

[me454555]

Thanx for the complement. I just need to build up the roll to sustain the swings, thats the key for me b/c I can't reload like a lot of the people w/full time jobs. I'll be moving up soon enough though.

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Finding the best game does not mean making the most $$. I can beat a .02/04 game for 10 bbs/100 but I can beat a 3/6 game for 2 bbs/100 and the winrate isn't even close.

My post isn't meant for those of you who are happy grinding out a few extra $$/hr @ 2/4 or 3/6. It was meant for those who desire to move up the limits and develop their poker skills beyond what they need to do @ the LLs

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree even though I've never played higher than 5/10 at this point. I like SH games because they are a more challenging and fun than the full games. In a 10 handed game, people just sit tight and wait to raise with their AK. In SH, you have to be more creative, and know when your mid pair is good. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[DMBFan23]

are you serious? stakes matter. risk of ruin?

[me454555]

Learning how to take advantage of both types of opponents is important

[me454555]

Your making way too much out of game selection. I've never had a problem finding good games below 10/20

[Alex/Mugaaz]

The stakes don't matter that much because I am not playing the higher games as my primary game. Let's say someone has 400bb's and play 3/6 regularly and is a winner. He logs on one day and see a 10/20 game thats play like .5/1 I would jump in with whatever I'm comfortable with losing as long as the game is good. If I go up 4bb and the fish leaves then I'm done with the game. That's what I'm talking about. If you play poker as your sole income the advice may not be a good idea, I agree. I don't "take shots". I don't sit in a game wondering if I can beat it or not. If I'm playing I'm sure I'm a winner. It seems to me the consesus here is to have a super nitty bankroll, always play in a so-so game, then become a gambling retard and try to luckbox a higher game you're unskilled enough to play, hoping that if youg et lucky your skill will catch up with you before ev does. I'm not even close to the best guy in the SS skillwise forums, but my results are probably close to it.I focus on what matters and don't sweat the small stuff.

[meep_42]

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5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

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too many things scare you, imo.

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Poker is a very odd hobby for just that reason.

-d

[meep_42]

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5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

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Yeah, meep, I've got you with solid stats in my PT as well... to quote Rob Schneider's idiot character in Waterboy, "Youuuu can doooo it!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Solid stats != solid play. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
But, if the players at 5/10 6m is as bad as 3/6, i'll probably give it a go.

-d

[bottomset]

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5/10 scares me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-d

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Yeah, meep, I've got you with solid stats in my PT as well... to quote Rob Schneider's idiot character in Waterboy, "Youuuu can doooo it!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Solid stats != solid play. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
But, if the players at 5/10 6m is as bad as 3/6, i'll probably give it a go.

-d

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in my short 3k stay so far, the games have played pretty similar, 5/10 is more aggressive