20/40 Live hand, big pot

[DeathDonkey]

20/40 live awesome game, everyone seems to be lagging it up at this point so there is alot of action. MP is a young "live pro" he claims, who has been getting way out of line preflop, and I have been 3 betting him a bit light as a result many many times and winning. I am two to his left and have had a lot of playable hands when he has been raising, he is pretty sick of it, thinks I am out to get him, and thinks I'm a lucky LAG (he has that part right) basically.

Anyway he openraises and I 3 bet with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, folded to an awful awful SB who calls. SB is a weird guy, he is super loose passive preflop and then a weird random LAG postflop who rarely folds and semibluffs and is tricky in all the wrong spots.

MP caps it (this means he has a real hand instead of say 74o which I caught him isolation raising with earlier). We both call.

Flop is K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif SB checks, MP bets, I raise, SB coldcalls, MP 3 bets, we both call.

Turn is 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif SB checks, MP bets, I raise again, SB pauses and then coldcalls, MP angrily calls.

River is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif checked around.

I think all the postflop streets are debateable really.

Thanks for any comments,
DeathDonkey

[toss]

I can understand the flop raise, but not the turn. At this point its likely MP has a better hand than you and is not gonna fold.

i think the logic behind it is that by raising the turn and checking behind the river, you charge the small blind an extra BB to draw to the flush while costing yourself nothing since you're likely calling down either way. it is better than just calling down because you still have outs to improve if you're behind MP. so while generally the extra BB goes to MP, you'll occasionally suck out and win an extra BB that you wouldn't have won if you just called down while putting in the same # of bets.

[toss]

I don't really like calling either. What hand is MP betting with here that we beat? I can only think of QQ or JJ or AQ with a spade.

Edit: Hmmm maybe I just convinced myself that DD's play is best.

I like the turn raise if you plan to check the river.
It charges the sb when he is drawing and the so called pro may actually have a spade draw since he can play so aggro.

NH

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like calling either. What hand is MP betting with here that we beat? I can only think of QQ or JJ or AQ with a spade.

Edit: Hmmm maybe I just convinced myself that DD's play is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

getting 12:1 with tpgk, i think you have to at least call here. as you said, we could be ahead of mp. and even though we're probably behind him, (assuming the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif is dirty) we have 4 outs against AA and 2 outs against AK. if you're gonna call, then i think raising is better.

pretty sure you're folding to a 3bet, ddonkey?

[imported_stealthcow]

in my opinion, you played this hand awesome

[sy_or_bust]

nice hand.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure you're folding to a 3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny, as I raised the turn I was thinking to myself "I have no idea what to do if I am 3 bet here". But I think I probably would have folded.

-DeathDonkey

[McGahee]

I understand wanting to charge SB for his flush draw - but still - you should not be raising the turn if you don't think you have MP beat >50% of the time, right? If you do think you have him beat more often than not, then the river's an easy bet, right? I don't really understand the free showdown play here unless you're pretty sure MP also has a flush draw and I don't see why you'd think that.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
in my opinion, you played this hand awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Pre-flop is read-based and you seemed to be pushing a good edge there.

Flop raise is good as your hand is still vulnerable, you'd like As and stuff to fold, you might sometimes fold out a medium /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you have value against hands like AQ, QQ, JJ with /images/graemlins/spade.gifs in them, and so forth.

And I have often expounded the virtues of raising the turn for a free showdown and this is certainly a good candidate...

[DeathDonkey]

I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What range was that poster giving MP? I agree that a turn raise is inconsistent with a river check, but I think the t/r is wrong to begin with. You're behind more than 50% here.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you said this McGahee. A very well respected mid/high poster told me afterwards that I missed a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What range was that poster giving MP? I agree that a turn raise is inconsistent with a river check, but I think the t/r is wrong to begin with. You're behind more than 50% here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - it sounds like MP just played black queens poorly, but without knowing that I don't think I'd raise the turn.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand wanting to charge SB for his flush draw - but still - you should not be raising the turn if you don't think you have MP beat >50% of the time, right? If you do think you have him beat more often than not, then the river's an easy bet, right? I don't really understand the free showdown play here unless you're pretty sure MP also has a flush draw and I don't see why you'd think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion this is misguided.

We raise the turn as a way to get to showdown and as the last two bet's we're probably going to put in this pot.

Our raise is not inconsistent with a river check because our turn raise is:

1. Primarily a way to get to showdown.

2. Aimed at generating value against hands that will put in money on the turn but not the river, such as big /images/graemlins/spade.gifs.

3. Has tactical value in pressuring SB (if he has an A, a medium spade, a pair with outs to beat us, etc.) that a river bet doesn't.

4. Has the possibility of getting the turn bettor to fold a better hand, but if he calls the turn he's much more likely also to call the river if he has a hand we're beating so that factor decreases in value.

I'm really surprised at this line of reasoning. Raising can be done for some many other reasons that immediate equity edges. I think it is fine to argue that our hero does in fact have a 55% edge here and hence should bet the river, but claiming that a river bet is a natural logical consequence of a turn raise is quite misguided in my opinion.

[McGahee]

What better hand are we getting MP to fold by raising the turn? I can't think of any.
I don't think pushing out SB saves us the pot when the river is a /images/graemlins/spade.gif either, unless you think MP is giving this much action with red KJ?
I am well aware of the virtues of the 'free showdown play' and I am not questioning its general use. I just don't think this is the best spot for it. Both opponents have to have a flush draw for it to make sense, no?

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]

I am well aware of the virtues of the 'free showdown play' and I am not questioning its general use. I just don't think this is the best spot for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? "I just don't think" on it's own is a pretty empty argument.

Will

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
You're behind more than 50% here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't agree with this part I guess. I had a good read on the guy, he was pissed off at me, he had been overplaying all night, and his angry turn call suggests to me that he finally realized he was getting charged for playing poorly and he needed help on the river. I hope this isn't a "you had to be there" thing because I make similar plays online alot against aggro guys in big pots - because you are ahead more than you think and its worth it to try and charge the draws the max and rarely push out a better hand.

So MP had AQ with the ace of spades and the bad SB had red KJ (a better hand than I expected from him). When a good mid/high poster says I missed a bet on the end, and then the SB turns up red KJ which he certainly would have called with - its impossible for me to argue that my check was correct in this hand. One thing I notice from playing / observing bigger games is that the really good players make thin (correct) value bets and I think I screwed up by not doing so here.

Thanks for the comments from everyone,
DeathDonkey

[lerxst337]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pretty sure you're folding to a 3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny, as I raised the turn I was thinking to myself "I have no idea what to do if I am 3 bet here". But I think I probably would have folded.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding this play, but the goal of your raise is to charge the draws maximum while hopefully showing down a marginal hand while investing the same number of bets if you had call/call. The ONLY reason why you would call the pro's 3-bet is read dependant, and that he is PURE tilty, right?

[DeathDonkey]

Yes, you have it just right.

-DeathDonkey