QQ

[SippinSoma]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

[B Dids]

Without a read, I'm raising the turn here and then moving forward.

This post really blows btw.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, I'm raising the turn here and then moving forward.

This post really blows btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

[pauliewalnuts]

I think you should call down. What if he just has a heart draw, or a hand like A6 and bets again knowing you'll be scared of the straight?

[krimson]

It might be the 6-max mentality in me coming out, but I say call this down. Seems to much like a bluff or semi-bluff with a flush-draw to me.

[B Dids]

To elaborate- so often this donk donk line is nothing. A top pair who refuses to believe you don't have AK or something. If you knew something about the guy doing it, I think you can start to think about different lines.

[SippinSoma]

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, I'm raising the turn here and then moving forward.

This post really blows btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[14:03] BDids: soma
[14:03] BDids: your post sucks
[14:03] BDids: reads
[14:03] BDids: thought
[14:03] BDids: missing
[14:07] soma_out: dids
[14:07] soma_out: if i don't post a read
[14:08] soma_out: it's b/c i don't have one
[14:08] soma_out: i don't like posting my thoughts immediately b/c it might guide discussion
[14:08] BDids: it's still a horrible post /images/graemlins/frown.gif
[14:08] BDids: meh
[14:08] soma_out: i didn't say it was right
[14:08] BDids: agree to disagree
[14:08] soma_out: i want to learn how to analyze these hands correctly
[14:08] BDids: that donk donk line
[14:08] BDids: is so usually jank
[14:08] BDids: that I can't fold there
[14:08] soma_out: eh
[14:08] soma_out: in my experience over the past week
[14:08] soma_out: it's highly mixed
[14:09] soma_out: and it's usually a draw
[14:09] soma_out: i'm just tired of the simple "call down" analysis
[14:09] soma_out: and i want to see if it can be broken down further than that


[/ QUOTE ]

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
To elaborate- so often this donk donk line is nothing. A top pair who refuses to believe you don't have AK or something. If you knew something about the guy doing it, I think you can start to think about different lines.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing that concerns me on this hand is that he lead into the field of 5 on the flop, from a position that looks like he's trying to trap the field off Hero's raise.

I basically am putting myself at a coinflip here as to whether i'm still good or not. He likely bet the field with a draw, either the oesd or flushdraw, or he has some hand like 2-pair or a set, or maybe just top pair with a gutshot, etc etc.

I'm assuming villian is unknown, so I prefer to take a line that involves showing this hand down. If we raise this, we pretty much have to fold to a 3-bet, which i'm not entirely happy doing.

[B Dids]

IRC paste is fun:


[11:16] &lt;BDids&gt; I raise turn
[11:16] &lt;BDids&gt; and see what happens
[11:16] &lt;BDids&gt; the thing is that QQ is a really showdownable hand
[11:17] &lt;soma_&gt; depends on the board context
[11:17] &lt;BDids&gt; and there's something to be said for finding a cheap showdown if you've got no [censored] clue where you are
[11:17] &lt;BDids&gt; yeah- I'm saying on this board
[11:17] &lt;soma_&gt; maybe you have a point htere
[11:17] &lt;BDids&gt; where hands like 88 and TT might take the same line

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To elaborate- so often this donk donk line is nothing. A top pair who refuses to believe you don't have AK or something. If you knew something about the guy doing it, I think you can start to think about different lines.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing that concerns me on this hand is that he lead into the field of 5 on the flop, from a position that looks like he's trying to trap the field off Hero's raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a lot of thought for a 2/4 player.

This can also be a guy with 88 betting into the field with "top pair" and then turning an OESD.

It's just really hard to define the hand from a guy with no reads at all.

[brettbrettr]

I don't see why raising the turn is much better than calling the turn.

[winky51]

Call down is the best play. Most likely hand is a set or 2 pair. If he is on a draw you want him to bluff at the river. Raising on the turn accomplishes nothing when your behind 2 pair or better. Even if he has a draw or even double draw he has good enough outs to win. he might even have a pair and a draw. Also consider if he has a set you have 2 outs to win and 4 outs to tie.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a lot of thought for a 2/4 player.

This can also be a guy with 88 betting into the field with "top pair" and then turning an OESD.

It's just really hard to define the hand from a guy with no reads at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, even dumbing it down to a typical 2/4 players level then.

Limp UTG, likely has suited connectors, small pp or better.
Bets the flop against lots of players, has some interest in his hand, a draw or better.
Turn, one draw comes through, he bets.

Based on this, i'm still giving approximately equal chances to him betting a draw or weak made hand we have beat, and him betting two-pair or better to avoid a free a card on a super draw heavy board.

Player is unknown, I would like to showdown my hand. If I raise and he has a straight, i'm possibly paying 4 bets to see a showdown. If I raise and he has a draw, and misses the draw, I likely win 2 bets. If I raise, and he has a hand that I have beat like 88, I likely win 3 bets. If I raise, and he has a draw, and hits his draw (lots of potential outs against us) I likely lose 3-4 bets.

If we calldown, I lose two bets max, or win 1-2 bets.

The ratio of bets won:bets lost assuming we're approximately a coinflip would make calling down of greater value.

I stand by my "typical call down response".

edit:

I should also add, when we're ahead he have lots of outs against us, if we're behind we likely have 0-2 outs.

[B Dids]

The guy called a raise in the SB, didn't limp UTG.

I'm agreeing now that a call might be better on the turn. That's an awfully coordinated board.

[krimson]

Oops, read the hand wrong. That certainly changes things slightly, but I think the range is pretty similar.

[sweet wicking action]

i'm going to chime in here, only because i think i might have some more insight into the play of really weak players. what if the villain is really bad? like me? you could put him on any sort of heart draw, especially one with the 7h in it. the posts previous to mine gave good reason to not fold, despite the possible legitimate holdings of the villain. however, i dont think enough weight is given to the possibility of him thinking he's best with Kh7h. I've thought it before. Other people must also.

Hey, if I'm way out of line with this thought, feel free to let me know. I don't think I've read enough of the forum to know whether or not this sort of thing goes without saying.

Thanks.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why raising the turn is much better than calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Stealthy]

I am folding here about never. With no read or against a fairly aggressive player I will raise the turn and call down against anybody else. I expect to win plenty often enough to make seeing a showdown easily +EV. I don't like this fold at all.