Poker definitions. Totally OT

[DrPhysic]

In updating our poker dictionary for the FAQ, I have run into three words for which the definitions seem a bit interesting. Perhaps our regulars would like to provide a definition or comments to help with these.

Advantage player
The definition currently in the dictionary is taken from Mike Caro University Poker Definitions:
“A thief or cheater, that is, someone who wins by taking an advantage.”

I received this pm from HammeringHank:
Hi Doc,

I must object to your definition of Advantage Player in your online dictionary. An advantage player is generally defined as anyone who gambles with an advantage over the house. It is a term that describes card counters, video poker pros, as well as sports bettors and three card poker players who play with an edge. I have sometimes heard it used to describe winning poker players. I have never heard it used in the manner you describe. I was a card counter for many years before I took up poker and I have many friends who would be appauled. Great job on the dictionary. It's very useful, you just missed one here.
Thanks,
Hank

Clearly a difference of opinion as to the definition of the word. Perhaps a difference in definitions may arise from the viewpoint of the person defining the word. ie: A card counter and a casino probably have differing viewpoints on the skill of the advantage player. Also possible that the useage of the word has changed over time.

Opinions or references that would clarify?

The other two interesting words for definition are: Ethics and Etiquette


The only definition I have found is from the poker terms list on PokerNews.com:
Ethics or Etiquette
“The understandings and courtesies of which violations do not constitute cheating.”

IMO this is not a sufficient definition. It would seem to me that there has to be a difference of connotation and probably denotation between the two words. Slowrolling cards at a showdown is a breach of etiquette, but certainly not unethical. Peeking at someone else’s cards when he does not protect them at a live table may or may not have anything to do with etiquette, but is certainly unethical.

Also, if one defines ethics and or etiquette, the definition of violation of same ie: unethical or breach or etiquette must be consistent with the original definition.

If you check webster you get:
Ethics: the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular group, culture, etc. (and several more definitions less relevant)
Etiquette: 1. conventional requirements as to social behaviour, 2. a prescribed or accepted code of useage in matters of ceremony, 3. the code of ethics of a profession.
Webster is only sort of relevant to a poker context.

Someone care to offer a good definition of each distinguising the two in a poker context?

Discuss please.

Doc

[citanul]

personally i would mostly object to the idea that ethics and ettiquette are in any way co-definable. they're really totally different things. ettiquette is like "say bless you when someone sneezes," or "don't bitch and moan when you lose a hand," or "play in a timely fashion," or whatnot. ethics is "be a good human." so "try not to angle shoot," and "don't rob people," etc.

c

[DrPhysic]

That is exactly why i objected to the definition on PokerNews which combined them. But it was the only def I could find in 50 books and about a dozen websites. They need poker context definitions that distinguish between the two.

Any ideas???????????

Doc

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
They need poker context definitions that distinguish between the two.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't exactly understand why they need poker context, they're real words...

one sec:

oed:

ethic: relating to morals
ethical: of or pertaining to morality

etiquette: (defn c) the conventional rules of personal behaviour observed in the intercourse of polite society; the oceremonioal observances prescribed by such rules. (defn d) the unwritten code of honour by which members of certain professions are prohibited from doing certain things deemed likely to linjure the interests of their brethren, or lower the dignity of their profession.

so personally i would say that ethics are those things that are general rules of human behavior. like, you can't shoot someone, you can't rob them, even though you're in a card room. so angle shooting, string raising, cheating in any way, (ooh, short raising, i think that's the word for what i was thinking, where you put in one too few chips or whatnot), and that sort of thing, are unethical. the key to unethical poker things i believe is that they seek to circumvent the rules of the game itself.

whereas etiquette are things that aren't actually injurous to other people, but you shouldn't do them anyway, because "it's a dick move." like slowrolling, berating people, etc. in poker world, i believe that violating etiquette usually doesn't involve breaking the rules of the game itself, and doesn't in any way provide an edge to the unethical player, he's just a dick.

c

[smoore]

Cheaters cheat, advantage players have a legal edge. Sports, card counting.... even playing a 99% VP machine with comps pushing the payout over 100% would be "advantage play".

[HammerinHank]

Here is the definition from BJ21.com's glossary. With all due respect to 2+2, BJ21 is the 2+2 of card counting

Advantage player. A player who wagers money only when he has a mathematical edge over the opponent. web page (http://www.bj21.com/glossary/main.html)

Concise and to the point. I hope we can incorporate it into the dictionary here.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
In updating our poker dictionary for the FAQ, I have run into three words for which the definitions seem a bit interesting. Perhaps our regulars would like to provide a definition or comments to help with these.

Advantage player
The definition currently in the dictionary is taken from Mike Caro University Poker Definitions:
“A thief or cheater, that is, someone who wins by taking an advantage.”

I received this pm from HammeringHank:
Hi Doc,

I must object to your definition of Advantage Player in your online dictionary. An advantage player is generally defined as anyone who gambles with an advantage over the house. It is a term that describes card counters, video poker pros, as well as sports bettors and three card poker players who play with an edge. I have sometimes heard it used to describe winning poker players. I have never heard it used in the manner you describe. I was a card counter for many years before I took up poker and I have many friends who would be appauled. Great job on the dictionary. It's very useful, you just missed one here.
Thanks,
Hank


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Hank. Advantage players engage in, well, advantage play. Advantage play is simply +EV play. There's no negative connotation in there at all, that I've ever heard of. To me it has the opposite connotation - an advantage player is a smart, knowledgeable, thinking man's gambler who plays to win. That simple.

eastbay

[ QUOTE ]
personally i would mostly object to the idea that ethics and ettiquette are in any way co-definable. they're really totally different things. ettiquette is like "say bless you when someone sneezes," or "don't bitch and moan when you lose a hand," or "play in a timely fashion," or whatnot. ethics is "be a good human." so "try not to angle shoot," and "don't rob people," etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.