big pot on the FT, is my top pair any good?

Hi, I folded with terrific odds there. Is there any chance I'm ahead at this point? I hesitated I was considering pushing or folding since the pot was too big to be checked on the river. The fact that the pot became so huge scarred me, but I can't believe they would keep slowplaying any kind of hand that could beat me, It would be to dangerous for them too. The raiser on the turn was not very good and he did a few mistakes earlier. I may have gave him to much credit on this one. I was shocked that he could fold to a heart on the river.

I thought about raising preflop but i felt like if a J came on the flop i could be ahead of many kind of hands and wanted to act from there. It seems that I did not stick to it very well. I really need to improve my post flop play there. What are the different ways to play the hand.

** Game ID 582018432 starting - 2005-11-18 01:46:45

** $1 NL Freezeout:Table 12 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (1600.00|3200.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money



- rawhide sitting in seat 1 with $11121.68
- mowjo sitting in seat 2 with $57575.00
- DurtyMick sitting in seat 3 with $7146.64 [Dealer]
- soccernow sitting in seat 5 with $27620.00
- JP_74 sitting in seat 6 with $30990.00
- BrainCanada sitting in seat 7 with $72206.74
- VACTEK sitting in seat 8 with $42700.02
- chewiechomp sitting in seat 9 with $29539.92
- crazycarl77 sitting in seat 10 with $20200.00



soccernow posted the small blind - $800.00
JP_74 posted the big blind - $1600.00


** Dealing card to JP_74: Jack of Spades, King of Clubs
BrainCanada folded
VACTEK called - $1600.00
chewiechomp folded
crazycarl77 folded
rawhide folded
mowjo folded
DurtyMick folded
soccernow called - $1600.00
JP_74 checked

** Dealing the flop: Jack of Hearts, 3 of Hearts, 9 of Clubs
soccernow checked
JP_74 bet - $3200.00
VACTEK called - $3200.00
soccernow called - $3200.00

** Dealing the turn: 8 of Clubs

soccernow checked
JP_74 bet - $4800.00
VACTEK raised - $9600.00
soccernow called - $9600.00
JP_74 folded

** Dealing the river: 2 of Hearts
soccernow went all-in - $14020.00
VACTEK folded

[nath]

(In the future, use the hand converter. It makes this easier for the rest of us.)
If your opponents are aggressive enough to bet the flop, I'd consider a check-raise all-in. That board is so draw-heavy that you absolutely want to shut out your opponents. If you check the flop, will the player behind you bet?
If not, then you need to bet more.
On the turn... I wouldn't fold necessarily but I also wouldn't bet 4800. Any bet I'd make would be with the intetntion of committing myself to the pot, which is over 14k now. With your stack size, I might just shove. At the least, I'd bet enough that there's no doubt I won't fold. Like 10k.
As you played it, I would raise all-in after the minimum raise and cold call out of position.
If he has QT, c'est la vie. You gotta get your money in with the best hand and you have to protect a hand like this against draws, if you think it's good.
Big postflop pots become VERY player dependent. What kind of hands do you think they have, given the action to date? If you think you're beaten, fold; if you think they're drawing (or will call with QJ or worse), ship it!
Tough hand. I don't envy you.

Thanks for the answer, the converter doesn't work with this site, may exist a way to do it though.

he showed T9, giving him one pair 9's. The other one told me he had pocket tens. So I had the best hand.

most of the players were very agressive and you could either check raised them or 3bet them, but not those two. the one that fold was capable of calling a big raise with still players to act behind him, he played that turn like in fixed limit. He certainly would have bet its tens, if I checked. So the check raise could have worked. But then how do I know I'm not behind?

Now that the hand is over I feel like i had the answer when they did not push the turn and that I should, like you said, have pushed there when the action came back to me. Of course I got the answer because I did not played correctly with that bet and they played it badly too.

On the turn, I'm more concerned by hds like J8, 98, 88 then by QT. And I'm unconfortable to push directly, what do you think? Is that weak to think that way?

Could you explain me the benefit (still a beginer, sorry) of commiting myself to the pot instead of pushing? Does that show more determination? or is it just to make the next decision easier? Or direct me to a thread about that.

[nath]

You don't know if you have the best hand if you push the KJ, but you never *know*. This late, with blinds this high, against two aggressive players, TP2K is probably good. You have to decide if your hand is good and then go with it.

The point of committing yourself as opposed to pushing is just that pushing is an overbet. It's not a problem to push, but either one is much more advisable than just betting 4800.

A minimum raise and a cold call from the guy out of position is shaky, so I understand why you might think your hand is no good. This is where knowing your opponents comes into play and you've played them more than I do. So if you think they're doing stuff like this with worse hands, you push. If you think you're beaten, fold.

Thanks for your help, Nath.

It will improve my game and my posts.

I would have either check/folded the turn or put in a big enough bet to commit myself, all depends on my read of the other players. My assumption from the action on the turn was that one of them was playing something like a set or two pair.

I might-MIGHT have put the raiser on the turn on an OESD but probably not with two other people in the hand, thats a ballsy raise. Im surprised the guys showed those hands, thats a situation where you really have to pop them on the flop to know what you're dealing with.

If its any consolation I probably would have folded the best hand too.

Another note. With two limpers in the pot, the pot is already big enough, I probably would have popped them with a pot sized bet on the flop to end the hand right there. If I got called ,then I'd probably commit all my chips.

[ QUOTE ]

Another note. With two limpers in the pot, the pot is already big enough, I probably would have popped them with a pot sized bet on the flop to end the hand right there. If I got called ,then I'd probably commit all my chips.

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And if you get raised all in there, do you fold?

I had this feeling before the flop that I could trap a worst J if a J came on the flop. But then I felt trapped myself and they could have slowplayed a set or two pairs. You don't really want to bust on TPGK. On the turn there was so much money that they would have to push if they were ahead, unless they have the str8+flush draw and think I won't fold anyway.

My bets being on the weak side I understand now that they could stick around with those marginal hands. I was way ahead like more than 70% (to win the hd) on the flop and the turn. Do you think that could be a spot where you take some risk to extract maximum value, or you always look for the answer on the flop by poping them.

That pot could have give me much more chances to win the tournment the way it was played (not in purpose). Is that a risk you can consider?

i would push on the turn, but for different reasons. i would be worried about the heart draw first and foremost. the min raise may be weak or strong, but usually its weakness. id push, thinking i was ahead, and trying to cut out the draw which hasnt gotten there yet. if, after playing with these folks, you felt you werent good, then thats your read, and comes from more information than we have here. TT is the only PP that i could see playing this board that you have beat, so i see how the cold caller frightens you, but i put him on a heart draw getting good odds. i put everybody on draws tho...

[durron597]

Since you described your opponents as aggressive, I would probably check the flop, hard to put your opponents on hearts necessarily and I would be prepared to give this hand up on the turn if a heart hit and the other guy checked behind. If the third guy bets, I would check-raise for value and to give me a better idea of what my opponents have if called.

[ QUOTE ]
Since you described your opponents as aggressive.

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I meant the table was pretty agressive, but those two players seemed pretty passive so far. especially the one that miniraised the turn and he was the only one left acting after me on the flop.