Can I Make More Money on Flopped Quads?

[Poker Jon]

Hi All,

Hand I just played. My table image is probably slightly LAG ish but nowhere near a maniac.

I have T3000 ish and blinds are 50/100

I pick up black 9's UTG + 1. UTG limps, I limp, all fold and blinds complete.

Flop is 993.

Sb bets 100, BB calls, UTG folds, I call.

Turn - 4

SB bets 100, BB calls, I raise to 500, and they fold.

Is there any other way to make money on this hand. I suppose I could call, and raise on the river, but is that the Maximum way for +$EV??

Should I raise on the flop to try and disguise?

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Jon

What is this buy in? I see low buy in people minbet to the river with nothing. I would flat call again on the turn, and hope he hits his overs so that he will pay off a raise. The 4 cant have improved his hand on the turn (most likely), so let him see the river to try and improve.

I let the other guy lead the hand as long as he'll go to let him try and draw something he'd bet with and hope he takes a big stab at the pot. On the river, obviously you're going to raise him if he leads, but there's no reason to give a huge raise like you did. You just want to raise for value, make it something that he practically has to call.

So in this case, I'm calling the bet of 100 on the turn. This pot is being built nicely playing 3-ways. If you call the turn, you've got t1000 in there and they both act before you on the river. You've done nothing to show strength so far, so there's a decent chance that one of them will make a move on the river especially if they catch a card. If they both bet t100 again, I'd raise, but only to t300. Ideally, I want both of them to call.

Against these goofy minbettors, I frequently raise the flop here because it's clear that no money of significance is going in unless I take the lead. One big problem with just calling this specific flop, IMHO, is that a lot of the hands in SB and BB's range that give you money on the flop can get scared on the turn.

Also, I hate the call flop/raise turn line as almost every bad player does it and almost every bad player knows about it.

[Poker Jon]

Buy in $5 multi on Stars (still playing about 40 of 200 ish). Normally play in higher value tourneys but got home from work early today ;-)

I thought about letting him bet out the river, but say he min bets again on the river, BB calls and I raise and they both fold I have gained T200.

If I raise the turn as I did to T500 and get one caller, that is +T400, and if I get two callers, T800 - surely a better +Ev overall?

This was my thinking here.

I find that too often, I catch a flop (not this huge mind you) and I try to slow play. Then when I make my move on the turn or river, a scare card has come and the opponent gets away easier.

Part of me thinks that I should have raised on the flop?

Any thoughts on this?

In think in this case, playing 3-way, you're getting decent money into the pot. On a board like that, it's very unlikely that you're going to get someone else all-in unless they catch a full boat, so let them keep feeding your pot as long as they can, and then raise the price just enough so that they'll call it on the river.

If you're going to raise the turn, you needed to raise it less since you didn't raise the flop. Your idea wasn't a bad one, I just think that once you called the flop, your best play was to call the turn and then raise the river.

Raising the flop would have been reasonable, you probably would have gotten at least 1 guy to come along to the turn, but I don't think you get anything else out of them unless they catch a card that gives them a really strong hand, at least a straight or better.

Seke, our goal isn't to maximize the average amount of times villains put money into the pot but to maximize the average amount of money villains put into the pot.

The fact of the matter is that there are a few hands which we can stack here instead of getting the 400 or so that we get from letting the minbetting continue. The vast majority of these hands are scared by the vast majority of turn cards that can fall. So, I like raising the flop to 500-700.

I guess I'm looking at the flipside here. I want to keep both of these players in as long as possible while still feeding the pot because if you keep both of them in, there's a better chance that at least 1 of them makes a hand that he's willing to pay big to showdown. Also, with both of them willing to put money into the pot before you, if one of them decides to make a move on the pot on the river, you're in perfect position to come back over them.

I think in the long-run, with the hand playing 3-way and a fairly weak board, you get more money in by keeping both of them in the hand as long as possible so they can try to draw to a hand. If you pop the flop to 500-700, you're likely to lose both of them right there. The OP didn't include suits, if there's a flush draw on the board, maybe you keep 1 of them. These other two guys likely have overcards or a pocket pair other than 3's. Why not let them draw the rest of the hand to try and make their set or hit the overcard for a strong 2 pair?

I see an argument for raising the flop, but I think 500-700 is way too big. Maybe 300-400. You don't want to lose either of these guys, and certainly don't want to lose them both. If you raise the flop that big, and get 1 caller, you're probably getting the same amount into the pot as you would if you let them both minbet to the river anyway, because you can't bet big on the turn when it comes with a 4. And if you check the turn, that looks like a slowplay.

Also, the OP noted that this is a $5 tournament, so if either of the other guys catch any sort of hand, there actually is a decent possibility of them going all-in with it.

[flawless_victory]

if u had 33 and the flop was 339, then you might raise.

given the board, raising flop or turn is pretty bad... especially with position... you absolutely need to slowplay this to the river and then bet/raise the amt that you feel will give you the most value.
remember a 1200 that gets called 50% gets more value than a 500 bet that gets called every single time.

so turn raise = bad.
if he has 33, u are going to bust him no matter wehat you do.

[Vavavoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi All,

Hand I just played. My table image is probably slightly LAG ish but nowhere near a maniac.

I have T3000 ish and blinds are 50/100

I pick up black 9's UTG + 1. UTG limps, I limp , all fold and blinds complete.

Flop is 993.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise PF...

U have been playing Lag....and all of a susdden u limp...

ALARM BELLS ???

[ QUOTE ]


I thought about letting him bet out the river, but say he min bets again on the river, BB calls and I raise and they both fold I have gained T200.

If I raise the turn as I did to T500 and get one caller, that is +T400, and if I get two callers, T800 - surely a better +Ev overall?

This was my thinking here.

I find that too often, I catch a flop (not this huge mind you) and I try to slow play. Then when I make my move on the turn or river, a scare card has come and the opponent gets away easier.





[/ QUOTE ]

You would only win 200, compared to the 100 you won here. Just smooth call this. This is a $5 MTT where the competition is bad and soft and thinks only in the myths about poker. I smoothcall, check the turn, let one of the 2 lead. Then I count to 15 and call. They'll think you're weak. Why check-raise the flop? If the flop was 99A, I'd consider it, just because I think I could get a call. But 993? Who else hits it? Nobody.

[Jah Red]

I like the way you played it. Raise the flop and kill all you action. Raise the turn with the 4 and maybe get a small ace drawing to a wheel. Other than that this board helps noone.

[Melchiades]

I actually like to solidly raise the flop. Everyone expects you to slowplay a 9, so why do exactly that? After the flop has been bet and called by two people all the action dies just because of that. And with your turn raise you announce that it was you that had the 9 (nevermind 2 of them), and the correctly fold. With a flopraise there is a pretty big chance a pocketpair higher than 3's is calling thinkig you are trying to steal the por representing a 9. Just my 5 cents.

The way you played it I prefer calling the turn as well, and raise the river however much you think they will call. that means a small raise, not 100 to 500. They are both very wary that someone might have been slowplaying the 9, and you will not get much action unless someone has 44 or 33 the way this hand played.

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
Seke, our goal isn't to maximize the average amount of times villains put money into the pot but to maximize the average amount of money villains put into the pot.

The fact of the matter is that there are a few hands which we can stack here instead of getting the 400 or so that we get from letting the minbetting continue. The vast majority of these hands are scared by the vast majority of turn cards that can fall. So, I like raising the flop to 500-700.

[/ QUOTE ]

so exactly what hands give you their stack here? 33 is going down anyway, no other hands are really gonna put too much into this pot. You absolutely should slow play this to the river.

[ QUOTE ]

so exactly what hands give you their stack here? 33 is going down anyway, no other hands are really gonna put too much into this pot. You absolutely should slow play this to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

44-88, and any hand with a 3 in it are hands that I want more money from. My big concern is that they fold a lot of turns/rivers if we wait til then to raise.

[Melchiades]

Agreed. If we wanna make money on this hand, we have to make them on the flop.

[runout_mick]

Having just limped in,on the flop I "bluff" about 400 after that weak bet and call. If they truly have nothing, they're going to fold without putting much more in this pot regardless. With any luck, one of them will see through your bluff and call or repop you. From his point of view, why would you raise here if you had the 9? Looks suspicious.

If we make it to the turn I check. I tried my bluff, it didn't work, I surrender. If he bets here, I just call if it's believable I'm on a draw. If not I re-raise.

Assuming he checks the turn, I overbet the pot on the river. One last ditch bluff here, and hopefully he's caught something on this board that might justify a call to look up your suspicious bet.

This line may not get past the flop very often, but when it does, it usually pays off your ultramonster hands well.

Just my 2 cents...

[Pepsquad]

If you FOLDED quads every time you flopped them, it wouldn't have as great an impact on your ROI% as if you found/plugged the the 37th biggest leak in your game.

It happens so rarely, the important thing is just to enjoy the moment. For me personally, I play them fast and if this happens to be the hand my opponents are feeling frisky then so be it.

So don't even worry about it.

[Roman]

ima put SB/BB on junk MUCH more often than 44-88. I think that a turn/river will improve their hand much more often than scare them from putting in any more money then they otherwise would. Most opponents fold a 3 on the flop fearing a higher pair/8, so I dont think getting the most value from a 3 will be accomplished by raising a flop.