Counterfeited on the river... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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PokerSparky

11-18-2005, 06:02 AM

No read on CO.
SB was 55/11/.9

SB betting the turn after I capped the flop kind of froze me. Should I overcall on the river?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets, CO calls, Hero?

Final Pot: 14 BB

adsman

11-18-2005, 06:25 AM

I hate letting posters have a free look at the flop. I raise this up preflop. This is a definate raise at 6max. I would have raised the turn. On the river, it sucks to be you.

PokerSparky

11-18-2005, 06:35 AM

Yep, not raising this preflop was a mistake. So I take you fold the river?

adsman

11-18-2005, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, not raising this preflop was a mistake. So I take you fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call if folding the winning hand would put you on tilt. The pot isn't small.

11-18-2005, 10:19 AM

*Grunch*

First of all I think you should raise preflop.

SB must have picked up something on the turn, but it's really strange to bet out with a draw. AT is a possibilty or an unlikely made straight. The river sucks of course, I don't want to call this because our kicker no longer plays. I think your hand will be second or third best often here, but I very much like to call because of the big pot. This is a fold to me.

imported_The Vibesman

11-18-2005, 10:24 AM

That's a weird donk on the turn. This player could have anything. If it was just him betting I might call down. But I think CO has you outkicked now anyway. I used to call this, but now I'm trying to make this laydown, without worrying about it.

jrz1972

11-18-2005, 10:33 AM

Raise preflop.

It's really hard to see how your hand is good here when you get capped on the flop and a loose-passive suddenly wakes up and leads into everybody on the turn. Folding the river is probably the right play since I think your hand is good like never and only rarely chopping, but like adsman said a call isn't awful if it will save your mouse.

(It's a lot easier to dump this on the river when you have to overcall to get to showdown).

11-18-2005, 01:26 PM

A question: that A-9s derives a lot of its equity from the flush draw it represents (miller's website has an article on just this very thing). Doesn't raising destroy this attribute of the hand, since it's YOUR drawing ability that's compromised by the (voluntary) addition to the pot?

After all, you're seeing a probable six, and certainly five players looking at the flop. This must put you in harms way big time, if youre depending on the power capacity of the hand only. A lot of cards dominate that 9, and cutting the legs out from under the FD A9s represents is pretty much creating negative equity for yourself, isnt it?

This isnt .5/.10 limit. And it's PokerStars, which has about the average ability for the blind level, so sayeth Bonuswhores.com, anyway. I'm not sure I wouldn't fold this hand pre-flop, since it's so easily dominated. And you're not going to move any players out with a raise, surely not SB with that 55 rating, and the other players have committed money. I certainly would NOT raise here, not with that many players, and not with that marginal a hand, which, again, IS LOOKING TO ITS SUITED CHARACTER FOR PLAYABILITY in this situation. That A-9s is looking really, really marginal, I think; and extremely so after a raise.

Certainly the raise post flop was correct. I would put CO on maybe an Ax, and perhaps a 7, or maybe JJ, or some other good pair. Still he's beat at this point. I would worry about SB. He's flying under the radar, so to speak, and though he's a wanker, he obviously has the most to gain from further play.

When he bet the T, I would put him on two pair, AT, almost certainly. Raising sucks CO into making big mistakes, which he was happy to make. And the real problem with your hand showed itself with that T. Domination.

Now one or both the CO and the SB dominate your holding, no matter what, although I'm banking that SB has a boat. Absolutely fold.

tlt

imported_The Vibesman

11-18-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A I'm not sure I wouldn't fold this hand pre-flop, since it's so easily dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising and limping may be pretty close, but folding this on the button after three limpers/posters in an unraised pot doesn't seem right at all to me.

tiltaholic

11-18-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No read on CO.
SB was 55/11/.9

SB betting the turn after I capped the flop kind of froze me. Should I overcall on the river?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets, CO calls, Hero?

Final Pot: 14 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop comments:

folding is clearly the worst of three options.

i feel raising is the obvious play, but would qualify that by saying that a limp here is good for a learning player (beginner/inexperienced player sounds too harsh).

like others have said, this would be a sanity call on the river, unless SB is known to be outright dumb. i'd fold without worrying (overalling does make it an easy fold)

11-18-2005, 01:45 PM

hey, tilt, then you disagree that the raise compromises the worth of the hand? Doesn't that raise remove the flush worth of it?

tlt.

11-18-2005, 01:57 PM

How delicious a hand! I definitely call PF with A9s and don't fault the raise on the flop, but I probably don't cap with 2 hearts AND at least 3 in the pot (the SB only check/cold called 2 ?!?) Interesting. His turn bet had the desired effect of confusing both aggressors in the hand, thus buying "virtual" position - he got a free card on the river, although I expect he was very disappointed to not get any action. Unless he is a total donk, I'd put him on 1. TT, 2. AT, distant 3 & 4 a Khigh flush draw or possibly sloplayed AA, but neither of those fit the stats. In any case, fold cuz U are beat.

tiltaholic

11-18-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hey, tilt, then you disagree that the raise compromises the worth of the hand? Doesn't that raise remove the flush worth of it?

tlt.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see why raising reduces the value of the hand.

i might be (mis)interpreting what you are saying but are you suggesting that "playing a hand for flush value" entails not betting (or raising)? if so then i disagree.

11-18-2005, 02:04 PM

well, i'm saying that, in this instance, with 6 players seeing the flop, there's a very good chance youre going to be dominated by another A, if the A falls. So the 6% of the time you hit a flush on this hand is crucial to the value of the hand in this situation.

if you raise the hand, that 6% is wiped out, isn't it? you're voluntarily increasing the cost of seeing that hand through to the end.

and then you're thrown back on the power aspect of the hand--which may not be enough in this circumstance.

adsman

11-18-2005, 02:15 PM

If you raise preflop and hit your flush you win more because;

1. you raised preflop. The pot is double the size.
2. you tie people to the pot due to it being large, so they pay you off more.
3. you may get everyone to check to you when you want to see the turn or river for free as you showed agression preflop.

Also, on this particular hand, if you don't raise preflop you're basically letting 3 random hands, (the poster, the sb and the BB) see the flop 'for free'.

11-18-2005, 02:21 PM

right, got it.

(pounding my forehead into the wall)

tiltaholic

11-18-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise preflop and hit your flush you win more because;

1. you raised preflop. The pot is double the size.
2. you tie people to the pot due to it being large, so they pay you off more.
3. you may get everyone to check to you when you want to see the turn or river for free as you showed agression preflop.

Also, on this particular hand, if you don't raise preflop you're basically letting 3 random hands, (the poster, the sb and the BB) see the flop 'for free'.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. what he said.

bottomset

11-18-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I wouldn't fold this hand pre-flop, since it's so easily dominated

[/ QUOTE ] +

a. you really need to reread the SSHE section on domination
b. domination is NOT a very big issue w/ a suited hand in a multiway pot
c. you aren't dominated very often here, since noone has raised
d.. folding here preflop is terrible

Redd

11-18-2005, 03:30 PM

Thief, IMO you seem to be undervaluing the TP abilities of the hand too. We can usually expect a pfr from AJ/AQ/AK, and AT only happens occasionally. We'll drag the pot here fairly often when we pair our ace, and even when we pair our nine.

MrWookie47

11-18-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I wouldn't fold this hand pre-flop, since it's so easily dominated

[/ QUOTE ] +

a. you really need to reread the SSHE section on domination
b. domination is NOT a very big issue w/ a suited hand in a multiway pot
c. you aren't dominated very often here, since noone has raised
d.. folding here preflop is terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to quote this point for emphasis. Not everyone raises AT preflop, but you don't have to be worried all that much about AJ, AQ, and AK in this situation. If there are other A's out there, you're much more likely to be the dominator, not the dominated.