(55) Donking it up with JJ

[Slim Pickens]

How much does everbody hate this? How would you play it?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

UTG (t1145)
UTG+1 (t1470)
MP1 (t945)
Hero (t2075)
CO (t2205)
Button (t730)
SB (t1015)
BB (t415)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="red">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="red">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="red">CO raises to t250</font>, <font color="red">3 folds</font>, UTG calls t150, Hero calls t150.

Flop: (t795) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="red">UTG bets all-in [t895] </font>, Hero ???, there is a player behind

[UMTerp]

I think preflop is fine, and it's a fairly routine fold on the flop with that action.

[handsome]

Easy fold.

[michw]

I would fold but I think there's a real good chance you have UTG beat. I'm guessing he has the nut flush draw or a pair QQ or lower. CO has a higher pair than you doesn't he? Haven't played enough 55's to be confident in this decision.

[johnnybeef]

playing jacks like a pussy is for pussys. reraise this one and it will be a lot easier decision for you on the flop.

[golfcchs]

Does anyone fold pre flop here facing UTG raise? With all the resent talk about folding AK why not JJ?

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone fold pre flop here facing UTG raise? With all the resent talk about folding AK why not JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're getting the correct odds to hit your set.

I play it the same way as OP.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the same way as OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to regret saying that when I post the rest of the hand.

[downtown]

Ok, I play it the same way preflop as OP, and I fold postflop. Results oriented? Maybe... heh.

Although, I don't terribly hate a call here. Let's not overlook that the play at the 55s can be as horrible as anywhere, and that bet is weird, and the reraise was weird... sometimes the 55s mess with my head.

[jeffraider]

Preflop I play just like you do 100% of the time. If I've got JJ and position on the guy, I'm playing. And even though you must hate your hand and not really know what flop you're praying for, I can't see folding for 150 more closing the action preflop. I think that the flop is a fold, though folding an overpair never qualifies as easy for me. I'm calling the flop 100% of the time obviously without the dude who reraised and has me covered behind me to act, but this situation is incredibly dangerous for you and you've still got oodles of chips to play with after you fold and watch UTG's 88 beat CO's AQ or whatever he calls with lol. (Note: I don't actually put those players on those hands but that's always what they've got for me when I fold like this lololol.)

EDIT: For some stupid bloody reason I didn't take into account your chip count when thinking about the preflop move, though I did consider when thinking about the postflop call. With your chips I will often make it 350 here depending on how I got that stack. If I showed down a big hand that I played aggressively preflop then I always raise it here, but I doubled through with a BB special or something I'm more likely to call. I wish to change my "call 100% of the time preflop agains the initial UTG raise to "call 30%, reraise 70%.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
(Note: I don't actually put those players on those hands but that's always what they've got for me when I fold like this lololol.)

[/ QUOTE ]

So I decided to run a $55 experiment here. The title is "Are people really as dumb as I want them to be?"


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG (t1145)
UTG+1 (t1470)
MP1 (t945)
Hero (t2075)
CO (t2205)
Button (t730)
SB (t1015)
BB (t415)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t250</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls t150, Hero calls t150.

Flop: (t795) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets all-in [t895]</font> , <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises all-in [t1825]</font> , CO folds.

Turn: (t2585) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2585) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2585

UTG has Ks As (one pair, nines).
Hero has Js Jd (two pair, jacks and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins t2585.

[jeffraider]

Hahahaha okay sold I'm just going to bite my tongue and start calling then.

[bigt439]

You're very luck CO had AK too. I think this is a very easy fold on the flop. For this reason I actually might muck preflop. Oh how weak tight. But seriously, what are you hoping for other than flopping a jack, which you don't have odds to do?

[1C5]

Easy fold?

In the 22s I call here with JJ.

Also, what do you put CO on? AK does make sense as does TT,99 and maybe AQ and QQ.

You would think he would reaise with AA, KK or even QQ...

But I admit, am a little scared about the player behind me so I can see a fold just for this reason...

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy fold?

In the 22s I call here with JJ.

Also, what do you put CO on? AK does make sense as does TT,99 and maybe AQ and QQ.

You would think he would reaise with AA, KK or even QQ...

But I admit, am a little scared about the player behind me so I can see a fold just for this reason...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you just have an epiphany in this reply?

You say at the beginning you call and then outline an argument that clearly dictates folding.

Think about a UTG raiser's range that pushes that flop, and a CO's range that has reraised a UTG raise and has yet to act. We're [censored] crushed here.

[1C5]

Maybe at the 55s but I don't play them. At the 22s and lower, it is not an easy fold. Not an easy call either mind you.

[ QUOTE ]
You're very luck CO had AK too. I think this is a very easy fold on the flop. For this reason I actually might muck preflop. Oh how weak tight. But seriously, what are you hoping for other than flopping a jack, which you don't have odds to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have J-J, the flop will not have over cards about a third of the time (I got this stat from a Sklansky's book, when I tried the math it was arond 43%). You will hit your set on the flop another 12% of the time. So you basically have a 48% to 55% of having an over pair or set on the flop. You were getting odds preflop, so I like the call, but I might have pushed again depending on the players and table dynamics.

If I were UTG with A-A through Q-Q, it's a clear re-raise for me pre-flop b/c I want this hand heads-up. UTG just called. So I don't put UTG on those hands. An easy call.

The real issue is the CO. Did he have something pre-flop or was he trying to squeeze one of you out? He will only have you dominated 3 out of every 220 times, so its way more likely he was trying to squeeze a player out and get a coin flip with an Ace / Broadway combo or was testing the waters with a low pocket pair with his the raise?

You need to find out, although I wonder if just calling UTG's bet would have been enough? Your all-in to me screamed, "I need to chase the CO out!" Was he the type of player that would put you to the test if you did not act in big way first? If so, the all-in was a great play. If not, a little risky but probably still alright.

Well played, I thought so even before reading the hand's results.

[Melchiades]

I like the way you played it in the original post. I fold that flop.

The combination of the push and a preflop reraiser yet to act make this a pretty clear fold for me.

[Slim Pickens]

I'm not liking that logic. There's no way I'm just calling here.

[Slim Pickens]

OK, so here's why I did this.

1) UTG is likely to have AK/AQ/other crap rather than a big pair. I would expect a big pair to just push preflop most of the time, and almost never open-push an undercard flop. I pretty sure I have UTG drawing to six outs.

2) Here's the good one. Notice both CO and myself have doubled up early, both on donks pushing into big made hands. He doesn't want a confrontaion without a monster. So what can I put him on? AA might re-raise preflop, or might smooth call. KK is probably re-raising. QQ may re-raise or smooth call. AK could be doing just about anything. He's likely folding queens if I push because I'm the only player at the table who can bust him. He might fold kings fearing AA or a set of nines.

Anyway, I just really, really wanted to see what hands he'd call with there. My best guess is that he folded QQ. It was a pretty bad idea to push but I thought I'd share anyway.

[citanul]

most players who will call with aa here preflop will call with kk too. that doesn't mean it's right, in fact, it's horribly wrong, but i'm just saying.

i don't think that the player in the co seat will fold jj+ on this board to your push. that seems more than just a little iffy.

i think your best guess is very, very wrong.

if you want to start imposing some super rationality on him, look at this whole thing from his side:

he reraised with something behind your smoooth call. then the other player came in, making a big pot, and the action's back to you. at this point, basically no one continues to trap in your spot, so you'd push KK (because you're not afraid of aces) and you push AA, and you probably even push QQ at this point. so on the flop, you can have medium pairs up to JJ or QQ, and he can have AK, maybe AQ, TT+, and maybe some other random hands, but who knows. I'm thinking the most likely thing you got him to fold was AK, honestly.

i think that 0 players at the 55s fold to your overpush with KK or AA, and possibly 5% fold QQ here.

the whole logic of "but i'm the only one who can kill him here" is really offset by "but i have aces and i'll have 8 bajillion chips when i win."

c

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so here's why I did this.

1) UTG is likely to have AK/AQ/other crap rather than a big pair. I would expect a big pair to just push preflop most of the time, and almost never open-push an undercard flop. I pretty sure I have UTG drawing to six outs.

2) Here's the good one. Notice both CO and myself have doubled up early, both on donks pushing into big made hands. He doesn't want a confrontaion without a monster. So what can I put him on? AA might re-raise preflop, or might smooth call. KK is probably re-raising. QQ may re-raise or smooth call. AK could be doing just about anything. He's likely folding queens if I push because I'm the only player at the table who can bust him. He might fold kings fearing AA or a set of nines.

Anyway, I just really, really wanted to see what hands he'd call with there. My best guess is that he folded QQ. It was a pretty bad idea to push but I thought I'd share anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tigerite]

If CO was coolpoker## (can't remember the number in ##) he can have absolutely anything here. He re-raises with absolute garbage.

[FlyWf]

Would you fold QQ in his spot?

Folding AA-QQ on that flop requires putting you exactly on a set. You aren't tricking anyone into thinking you called PF with KK or AA.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you fold QQ in his spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold QQ in the CO here without a problem. Obviously, I'm not giving UTG much credit, but I wonder who, in MP, smooth-calls two raises preflop and then over-pushes a 9-high flop. That range is a set (poorly played PF but it hit), QQ, KK, AA, and maybe an idiot with JJ.

[FlyWf]

AA and KK are both extremely unlikely because you didn't raise at all preflop. I'm confident in that spot with QQ that I'm not facing an overpair and I'm getting great pot odds. I don't need to see TT and JJ that often to make this profitable.

(and if you want CO to give you credit for possibly playing AA, KK, and a low PP like an idiot you also need to consider that is also giving you credit for playing AQ like an idiot.)