($27) Blind Battle [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

durron597

11-18-2005, 01:23 AM

Villian had won his 480 extra chips by completing the SB after one limper in level 1 with 53, flop A23 checks around, turn 5 he slight overbets and calls a minraise, river 5 he leads 3/4 pot.

That's all I remembered when this hand occurred.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1515)
UTG (t1640)
MP (t1420)
CO (t2890)
Button (t4055)
SB (t1980)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t100) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t300, SB calls t200.

Turn: (t700) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero calls t100.

River: (t900) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t1065,

11-18-2005, 01:46 AM

I'm not a fan of fighting over the blinds with a pair of 4s, but whatever. I assume you expect him to fold a better hand here on the river? Given the way he's played it, how likely is that? Is he going to buy that you had 56, say, and picked up trips on the river?

There is one other potential problem, too. It's vaguely possible villain is a fan of another forum, and is playing his favorite hand again. If he cross-posts here and knows who you are he's undoubtedly getting an enormous chuckle right about now.

durron597

11-18-2005, 01:51 AM

11-18-2005, 01:52 AM

53o is a monster.

There are bound to be others along soon who can verify this. What was the player's name?

durron597

11-18-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
53o is a monster.

There are bound to be others along soon who can verify this. What was the player's name?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t500)
Hero (t1380)
UTG (t2740)
MP (t2025)
CO (t3095)
Button (t3760)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, SB raises to t500, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1000) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Turn: (t1000) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t1000) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1000

Results in white below: 
SB has 8c 6s (high card, queen).
Hero has 5s 3d (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins t1000.

11-18-2005, 02:01 AM

So you were already aware, then.

So you're representing 53o? Why not min-raise the river then? That's got to be much scarier, given that he obviously knows the power as well. Gotta be careful not to represent your opponent's hand, though.

11-18-2005, 02:06 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.pushfold.com/converter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1290)
MP2 (t1190)
MP3 (t2500)
CO (t430)
Button (t1270)
SB (t1760)
Hero (t1220)
UTG (t2340)
UTG+1 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls t30, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t180) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB bets t30, Hero raises to t200, MP2 calls t200, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t610) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t990 (All-In), MP2 calls t960 (All-In).

River: (t2560) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2560

Results below:
Hero has 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (two pair, fives and threes).
MP2 has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins t2560.

-----------------------------------

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.pushfold.com/converter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t3785)
MP (t2920)
Button (t3805)
SB (t2260)
Hero (t730)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Button calls t200, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (t500) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t500) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t200, Hero raises to t530, Button calls t330.

River: (t1560) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t1560

Results below:
Button has 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (high card, ace).
Hero has 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins t1560.

bones

11-18-2005, 02:09 AM

Can we please stop all of this friggin 53 nonsense?

durron597

11-18-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can we please stop all of this friggin 53 nonsense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, please, it was a funny-once joke /images/graemlins/frown.gif

11-18-2005, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is one other potential problem, too. It's vaguely possible villain is a fan of another forum, and is playing his favorite hand again. If he cross-posts here and knows who you are he's undoubtedly getting an enormous chuckle right about now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm dead serious about this part. There are specific players (some of whom I know play these SNGs) where, had I seen the previous SB hand you mention, I'd almost expect to see a boat here.

Not to mention, even assuming I take a stab at this flop, I'm giving in to any further resistance afterwards. I am legitimately interested in your thoughts from the turn on, and the results.

durron597

11-18-2005, 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Not to mention, even assuming I take a stab at this flop, I'm giving in to any further resistance afterwards. I am legitimately interested in your thoughts from the turn on, and the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Duh.
Flop: Ok, he didn't bet out with a pair last time, but he his now. Maybe he's taking a stab HU? Let's raise and make him pay to see a 6 outer, and make the rest of the hand easier to play (him calling my raise is much more useful information than him leading).
Turn: 100 again? That's odd. Ok, let's re-evaluate. We saw him push two pair hard, he's betting small. He's clearly not expecting a fold from me after I raised the flop, which means this is either a value or blocking bet - maybe he has a three? I think his hand is no stronger than a weak Jack, maybe a draw, a hand like 24, maybe a three? My hand is ahead of some of his range and behind others and I'm getting 8:1 with a likely 5 outs when behind (technically I'd need 9 or 10:1 but I'm ahead sometimes) so I call.
River: Ok, 100 again. I am now positive he is not strong, I showed strength on the flop and am unlikely to fold, so if he had a hand he'd probably bet more - he has no reason to believe I am aggressive yet. However some hands he may consider to be weak yet beat mine - A4/K4/66-77, weak jacks. I really felt the type of player who would bet like this with a marginal hand probably isn't calling this push - sure, my hand has SD value but I think I make more folding some better hands than I do hoping he has like, a 3, a worse 4, or pocket deuces. Honestly the hand I put him on at this point was J2 and from the way he played it so far I thought he would fold to my push.

Results later.

11-18-2005, 02:43 AM

Does that all really go through your head in game? I'm rarely thinking this deeply when multi-tabling these, in large part because I don't normally expect my opponents to be rational enough to decide whether, for instance in this case, your calculations are correct, or if villain is on 33 or A2 and misplaying it at various points. Or whether he's just got JT and will call you down no matter what.

I'd feel more comfortable with some of your deductions if you had more history on him than the one previous hand.

bones

11-18-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd feel more comfortable with some of your deductions if you had more history on him than the one previous hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, he'd be much better off assuming the guy had 53 because some donks on an internet message board think it's a cute hand.

Taraz

11-18-2005, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Honestly the hand I put him on at this point was J2 and from the way he played it so far I thought he would fold to my push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this part is the key. Is he capable of folding a Jack here? I've only played on Stars a couple of times, but I've seen people call raises like this with JT on Party. What did he have?

durron597

11-18-2005, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does that all really go through your head in game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes. I was constantly re-evaluating the hand out as I played it, so I had the entire duration of the hand to think about that. And I only three table - I'm still not good at playing all three of them shorthanded the times it happens.

bigt439

11-18-2005, 09:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd feel more comfortable with some of your deductions if you had more history on him than the one previous hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, he'd be much better off assuming the guy had 53 because some donks on an internet message board think it's a cute hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In his face.

Regarding the hand, I don't like the river push. The reason being that I don't see him laying down too many jacks here. I'm not going to get into why, that just been my experience that has forged my opinion. I see him calling with almost any J and up. While his bet does look really weak and I understand why you'd want to attack it, I think the portion of his range that falls between a J and a 4 is small enough that seeing a showdown is better (i.e. to beat a worse 4, a 3, A high). If we're not folding jacks (and if you want to assume you are, you're only folding the weakest ones because of how you played the turn), then we're only folding better 4's and pp's and that's too small of a range for me to not take a showdown when I believe I beat a much larger portion of his range (even though the biggest part of his range is probably a hand that beats us).

I make alot of assumptions in this analysis, but I think they are all reasonable ones. I just think taking a showdown has more value than a bluff giving the guy decent odds, when you played the turn unlike any made hand would.

durron597

11-18-2005, 10:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I make alot of assumptions in this analysis, but I think they are all reasonable ones. I just think taking a showdown has more value than a bluff giving the guy decent odds, when you played the turn unlike any made hand would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played this hand like I had a straight draw on the flop and picked up runner runner trips. I would have played 56 the exact same way.

11-18-2005, 10:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I make alot of assumptions in this analysis, but I think they are all reasonable ones. I just think taking a showdown has more value than a bluff giving the guy decent odds, when you played the turn unlike any made hand would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played this hand like I had a straight draw on the flop and picked up runner runner trips. I would have played 56 the exact same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but is the average guy at the $27s going to realize that? Moreover, if he does, is he going to buy that you'd push trips rather than make a raise he'd have to call?

I think an idiot calls with a J here a lot, and a thinking player gets real tempted to call with one as well.

Jbrochu

11-18-2005, 10:17 AM

I would just call the river because I can't see anybody calling your bet unless you're beat, and I can't see many people laying down a hand that beats you, including just a pair of jacks.

durron597

11-18-2005, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call the river because I can't see anybody calling your bet unless you're beat, and I can't see many people laying down a hand that beats you, including just a pair of jacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

He tanked for a long time, and folded. So I don't know what he had, maybe I got him to fold a worse hand.

bigt439

11-18-2005, 11:40 AM

bawcerelli

11-18-2005, 11:56 AM

i fold the flop

you played this hand like zach the lego maniac

bigt439

11-18-2005, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i fold the flop

you played this hand like zach the lego maniac

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to get runover.

durron597

11-18-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i fold the flop

you played this hand like zach the lego maniac

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to get runover.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you fold such a great flop in a blind battle in position? bigt is correct.

Melchiades

11-18-2005, 12:15 PM

Can't say I like it too much. I agree that you played it exactly like you would have played a straight draw, but will villain recognise that? Or will he think "He raised on the flop trying to represent the jack, then slowed down once i didn't go away. And on the river he is trying to use the scarecard to buy the pot."

I think a jack will call you here, not many other hands. But I think it's highly unlikely you will get a jack to fold. Villain played the hand like he had a jack with a weak kicker, or like he is a donk though. So maybe he laid down a jack after all.

bawcerelli

11-18-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i fold the flop

you played this hand like zach the lego maniac

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to get runover.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you fold such a great flop in a blind battle in position? bigt is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't like getting involved with donks when i'm in the blinds. i get myself into too much trouble. it's part of my game i need to work on.

durron597

11-18-2005, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think a jack will call you here, not many other hands. But I think it's highly unlikely you will get a jack to fold. Villain played the hand like he had a jack with a weak kicker, or like he is a donk though. So maybe he laid down a jack after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I didn't call. My thought process was "well, I'm probably behind, but folding sucks and calling feels like I'm thrownig away 100 chips. So I push."

Melchiades

11-18-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I didn't call. My thought process was "well, I'm probably behind, but folding sucks and calling feels like I'm thrownig away 100 chips. So I push."

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes sense. I guess the question is how often will the villain fold a jack in this spot. He probably did here, but I'm not sure he will often enough. People just seem to love to try to pick off bluffs. Which is what makes large riverbets with the nuts a good idea against certain players.

Jbrochu

11-18-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He tanked for a long time, and folded. So I don't know what he had, maybe I got him to fold a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible he folded a J here. It's probably just as likely he ran some time off for dramatic effect prior to folding a worse hand.