Blind stealing at the PP 10/20

[BigEndian]

This is one of the things that stands out to me as a mistake by a number of TAGs at the 10/20 full ring. Not all of course and probably not even a majority. I suspect it's mostly people new to the 10/20.

In general, people defend their blinds and attempt to steal blinds too much.

The reason this happens is pretty easy to grasp. On a table that's at least 50% TAG, which most every 10/20 is, a blind stealing opportunity is going to be very common. As a result, a TAG dutifully raises to attack what is likely two other TAGs in the blinds figuring their folding equity is very high.

The TAGs in the blinds, being no dummies, know what is happening is very likely a steal attempt and after just a few minutes of exposure to 10/20 figure they need to defend a lot more.

Side question: Who's making the bigger mistake, the player who attempts to steal more or the player who defends more?

TAGs can get so in the habit of stealing that they no longer restrict their steals into players that have a high probability of folding.

I cannot possibly recount the number of times I've cringed seeing some TAG trying to steal a 30%+ VPIP player. Worse, a 75% showdown player. If one of those players is sitting to your left, give it up, you won't be getting very many blinds at all that session.

When presented with an opportunity to steal a blind, I take as much information possible into account (if I'm not distracted, in which case I simply fold). Not the least of which is how often have I tried to steal the blind recently. Try to work out a balance to your blind steals without just mashing raise button. And especially avoid those post-flop jousting hands where chips are spewn (we're all guilty of these).

When defending the blind, ask yourself why you're defending the blind. Let a player take a few blinds. You don't have to defend them all like a rabid dog. The blind isn't your money anymore. This is poker 101, but it's so easy to forget. The blind in front of you is offering you a discount to see a flop against your opponent, but it doesn't turn Q2s into QJs.

- Jim

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
And especially avoid those post-flop jousting hands where chips are spewn (we're all guilty of these).

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason why better players steal and defend blinds more than would seem correct is that they play well enough postflop to spew less often when behind and take in a lot of chips when it is the other player who is willing to spew.

Discretion is advised in stealing and defending blinds, but stealing blinds is beneficial because:
(1) you might win the blinds without a flop; or
(2) you might win with a continuation bet on the flop; or
(3) you might flop the best hand or a strong draw; and
(4) you increase the action you get on your real hands
When defending the blinds, you are looking at (3) and (4) (but you're getting a better price on your money...but unfortuntaly you also have lousy position).

The players who steal and defend blinds too infrequently are easy to play against (once you recognize this trait of theirs). Players who steal and defend a lot (perhaps even a bit too much) are hard to play against, even when you know what they are doing. Even players who steal and defend too much can be tough to play against if they are good postflop (though most who fall into this category are easy to beat because they are clueless after the flop).

Stealing and defending blinds liberally is important, though it is also important to show some discretion, especially once you have a loose action player image.

In short, I think the real problem is that:

In general, people who defend their blinds and attempt to steal blinds liberally often play their hands very badly postflop.

Stealing and defending your blinds a lot can be a winning strategy, but you need to know when you have the fold equity to bluff, how to get value out of your winning hands, and how to exploit your opponent's tendencies.

[molawn2mo]

First thing that I do upon sitting down is look left (statistically) and gauge the frequency that my blind steals will take place. Thereafter, I look right and gauge my defense strategy using my right hand opps stats.

Once this housekeeping has been taken care of it becomes time to play poker.

i would be curious if you would run a chance to steal and raised filter. what is your bb/hand when you steal? If it is positive then stealing is +ev.

I asked myself a question 25k hands ago (I play 3-6)....how much do I make on average when I steal. The answer seem to be around .32 bb/hand on avg. My attpt to steal stat was around 30%. So I decided to play 50k hands where I woudl steal from the button EVERY chance I got and from the CO liberally (any ace down to J7o etc). So far I have 25k hands and I still make .32bb/hand when I have the chance to steal and raised. As you can see stealing so far for me has amounted to a ton of $$$$

At 10-20 Im sure things are different, but my point is to look into poker tracker a little deeper. Also you can run a filter "steal attempted and called". what is your bb/hand there? When you fold you give up .50bb/hand.

Just some interesting thigns I thought may help.

P.S. go to positions page. what is your bb/hand for the BB position and the SB position? and over how many hands?

[sweetjazz]

You do realize that what is important is not whether you are profitting from blind stealing (which no doubt you are, since you are also raising premium hands here), but whether you are profitting from raising the most marginal of hands. Your total blind steal average is irrelevant because it includes the times when you "steal" the blinds with AA and other obvious raising hands.

But even this is not quite the relevant quantity, because it does not take into account how other people change their play because of your aggressive blind stealing.

Obviously blind stealing is profitable with certain hands. The question is...is it profitable with some of the trashiest of hands? For example, it will increase your overall EV for the session if you open-raise on the button with Qxo whenever x is greater than 9? 7? 5? something else? Of course, the answer would heavily depend on the style of play of the particular blinds at that session, the recent history of hands played, and the likelihood the blinds will adjust their play if you end up showing down Qx in this spot.

[BoxLiquid]

IMO I don't think it matters how often they steal blinds or how much they defend it. If you can't play well post-flop against your opponents they will have a big advantage whether they are the big blind or button.

I have tried to take advantage of good TAGs by stealing their blinds and a lot of times it can be very -ev. I would sometimes end up killed because their hand reading and post-flop play is so much better.

It takes a lot of practice.. Perfect practice makes perfect.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]

I cannot possibly recount the number of times I've cringed seeing some TAG trying to steal a 30%+ VPIP player. Worse, a 75% showdown player. If one of those players is sitting to your left, give it up, you won't be getting very many blinds at all that session.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif playing HU pots in position against 30% vpip, 75% showdown players. I don't need AK to make this situation profitable. I don't need a strong hand at all.

[ QUOTE ]

When defending the blind, ask yourself why you're defending the blind. Let a player take a few blinds. You don't have to defend them all like a rabid dog. The blind isn't your money anymore. This is poker 101, but it's so easy to forget. The blind in front of you is offering you a discount to see a flop against your opponent, but it doesn't turn Q2s into QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are not bad postflop, blind defense even with poor hands usually has more EV than folding.


So, basically your main points are:
-Don't blind steal from loose players (totally disagree)
-Don't defend against players that steal liberally ( /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

[einbert]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3969435&page=0&vc=1

James282's thoughts on folding Q9o to a raise in the BB:

[ QUOTE ]
Folding has an expectation of -.5 bb/hand. There is no way calling has this same negative expectation. It's very hard to wrap your mind around it unless you have looked at these things in a database, but having an expectation of -.5bb/hand is very, very difficult. Especially if you play well postflop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

In general I find James to be a great source of knowledge and insight into LHE, and I can't help but agree with him here from my own experience. Blind defense is just profitable, period.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3969435&page=0&vc=1

James282's thoughts on folding Q9o to a raise in the BB:

[ QUOTE ]
Folding has an expectation of -.5 bb/hand. There is no way calling has this same negative expectation. It's very hard to wrap your mind around it unless you have looked at these things in a database, but having an expectation of -.5bb/hand is very, very difficult. Especially if you play well postflop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

In general I find James to be a great source of knowledge and insight into LHE, and I can't help but agree with him here from my own experience. Blind defense is just profitable, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you on the general response to Big Endian's post, though I don't have much experience at 10/20 full.

But I have some real questions on the thread you linked to (and am asking those questions in that thread), but the hand at issue in that thread is not really a blind steal / blind defense hand -- barring some unusual player read, I'd defend Q9o against a steal raise all the time - but my approach to date has been much different against a raise from earlier position and two cold-callers before it gets to me in the BB.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot possibly recount the number of times I've cringed seeing some TAG trying to steal a 30%+ VPIP player. Worse, a 75% showdown player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this player is also passive, you shouldn't need much of a hand at all to show a profit against him heads up. Just take the free card when you miss and he checks to you, and bet your made hands. He gives you so much excessive action on those flops where you connect that it ovecomes the losses and those hands where you miss the first 4 cards.

-eric

[BigEndian]

I agree that this is true, but I don't think it's worth paying 2SB. It will cause me to limp a hand so that I can play a flop with position against these players though.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

Here are the #'s out of my PT. Note, I just started tracking #'s in PT again, so this is only over 7500 hands (sample-size police stay away, I was asked for these numbers). About 2 months of play for me.

BB/100 won stealing: .39/100 (w/calling) .35/100 (counting only the times I raised)
BB/100 lost w/ chance to steal and folded: .03/100
BB/100 lost from the SB: -.12/100
BB/100 lost from the BB: -.22/100

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I don't disagree with what you wrote at all (except the liberal part, which is subjective and semantics). I didn't state that blind stealing/defending was bad. Only that some players do it too frequently and with the appearance of giving little thought to the situation.

The intent of the post is to encourage people to think a little deeper about their blind steals rather than have the action folded to them and automatically push the raise button.

- Jim

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the things that stands out to me as a mistake by a number of TAGs at the 10/20 full ring. Not all of course and probably not even a majority. I suspect it's mostly people new to the 10/20.

In general, people defend their blinds and attempt to steal blinds too much.

The reason this happens is pretty easy to grasp. On a table that's at least 50% TAG, which most every 10/20 is, a blind stealing opportunity is going to be very common. As a result, a TAG dutifully raises to attack what is likely two other TAGs in the blinds figuring their folding equity is very high.

The TAGs in the blinds, being no dummies, know what is happening is very likely a steal attempt and after just a few minutes of exposure to 10/20 figure they need to defend a lot more.

Side question: Who's making the bigger mistake, the player who attempts to steal more or the player who defends more?

TAGs can get so in the habit of stealing that they no longer restrict their steals into players that have a high probability of folding.

I cannot possibly recount the number of times I've cringed seeing some TAG trying to steal a 30%+ VPIP player. Worse, a 75% showdown player. If one of those players is sitting to your left, give it up, you won't be getting very many blinds at all that session.

When presented with an opportunity to steal a blind, I take as much information possible into account (if I'm not distracted, in which case I simply fold). Not the least of which is how often have I tried to steal the blind recently. Try to work out a balance to your blind steals without just mashing raise button. And especially avoid those post-flop jousting hands where chips are spewn (we're all guilty of these).

When defending the blind, ask yourself why you're defending the blind. Let a player take a few blinds. You don't have to defend them all like a rabid dog. The blind isn't your money anymore. This is poker 101, but it's so easy to forget. The blind in front of you is offering you a discount to see a flop against your opponent, but it doesn't turn Q2s into QJs.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I was playing 3-handed yesterday for about 1/2hour aginst 2 loose passive players. I was raising a lot hands like K2s or Q5s. When you can expect to get calls from hands like 85o on a regular basis, these become thin value raises with a hand in position.

I get the point of your post, but at the same time when your opponents defending range is very wide, and he is passive and won't play back at you without a hand... even Jx hands have showdown value. And you will have a PF equity edge with a wide array of hands. You will also be able to realise this equity edge, because you will be able to get to showdown cheaply if that is what you choose to do.

[Abbaddabba]

People expect to play for a loss from the blinds.

Defending against a steal attempt minimizes those losses.

Stealing is profitable, and that profit comes from the overlay of the posted blinds. You surely can't both be profiting from the interaction. It's the stealer that generally profits, and the blind defender who is decreasing their losses. If you take the blind to be a write off when teh hand starts, then technically speaking, both players _are_ making money by the interaction, fighting over the pot.

That's how tight, tough games work.

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing 3-handed yesterday for about 1/2hour aginst 2 loose passive players. I was raising a lot hands like K2s or Q5s. When you can expect to get calls from hands like 85o on a regular basis, these become thin value raises with a hand in position.

I get the point of your post, but at the same time when your opponents defending range is very wide, and he is passive and won't play back at you without a hand... even Jx hands have showdown value. And you will have a PF equity edge with a wide array of hands. You will also be able to realise this equity edge, because you will be able to get to showdown cheaply if that is what you choose to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

It becomes almost mechanical when you know what strenght of hands they'll show down and what they'll raise.

[BigEndian]

Of course stealing is profitable. Apparently I need to work on my writing skills. Everyone seems to be reading what I wrote above as "thou shalt not steal". Which is silly of course. Every good Christian, Jew and Muslim steals.

- Jim

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that this is true, but I don't think it's worth paying 2SB. It will cause me to limp a hand so that I can play a flop with position against these players though.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're onto something there, and it's hidden away in HFAP if I recall as well. If they'll defend with lots of stuff and play badly postflop, open limping has some value.

good luck.
eric