Common top pair situation

[LoaferGee12]

CO is 34/21. I don't know anything about him postflop
Button is loose and his cold-call really means nothing.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero

Just not sure what the optimal line here is.

[Mathieu]

* grunch *

I've never played six max so I could be way off...

Here I would check with the intention of raising. CO will call your check raise with under pairs, even more so if Button folds since he will worry that you are semi-bluffing the flush draw.

Also, on a K high flop CO might bet some Ax hands that he would fold for 1 bet.

I doubt that this gets checked through, but if it does it's not so bad since few cards can hurt you.

[MrWookie47]

This is a good spot to c/r. You'd rather not have button hanging around.

According to your stats, he looks as if he has a pretty wide pfr range. With that said, I'd go for the flop check/raise and re-evaluate a 3-bet on the turn.

If he likes to raise a lot when you play back at him he's probably a bully, then I'd be calling down. If I improve, I'd bet out and 3-bet the turn. But generally, calling down non-A turn and river seems okay to me.

Since I'm new to 6-max, I'm unsure if generally calling down when an overcard like an A shows up on later streets is okay to do HU/3-way.

To Me preflop looks like late position aggression vs the blinds.

Check/Raise the flop. I think the aggressor will bet in an effort to continue his bluff. It also allows you to trap the button for one more.

I lead the turn and re-evaluate

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good spot to c/r. You'd rather not have button hanging around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you expecting BU to fold to CO's instabet?

I expect the muppet BU to be with us on the turn a lot.

I think, c/c the flop if BU is still in.
c/r if it's HU or CO checks.

Bet\fold the turn UI.
c/r improved if BU is still in.
I bet bet/call HU improved.

EDIT: I'm not stoked with a c/r on the flop other than HU.
I'm going to have to call a 3bet and c\f the turn UI. I think I'd rather save that 1BB and keep my hand hidden for the turn.
2nd EDIT: If my c/r is called on the flop. I'm still bet\folding the turn UI most of the time anyway.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good spot to c/r. You'd rather not have button hanging around.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like you're implying a check-raise will be more effective here at folding out the button, but C/Ring here traps button as opposed to facing him with two. I still value check-raise though in accordance with Aaron Dubya's recently linked 'betting into the pfr' discussion.

[benkath1]

I get stuck in these situations too. I agree with the rest that this is a good spot to check raise.

What happens to me is I get 3 bet and I'm OOP and lost again. Is this a hand that I should be folding to a 3-bet on this flop, or showing down?

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good spot to c/r. You'd rather not have button hanging around.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like you're implying a check-raise will be more effective here at folding out the button, but C/Ring here traps button as opposed to facing him with two. I still value check-raise though in accordance with Aaron Dubya's recently linked 'betting into the pfr' discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that link is what got me thinking about this as I almost always used to bet in this situation. I check-raised here for value.

[Koss]

*grunch*

Check/raise for value? Lead for fun? I'm not really sure the "optimal" line, as the button complicates things. Heads up I'd check/raise all day long. There's really no way to protect our hand from the turn cards we don't want to see. Donking might work if the CO would raise some weaker hands and charge our calling station 2 cold. Then we could call down from there unless the board gets really dangerous.

I'm leaning towards betting just because I would hate to see this get checked through, and the CO could always raise for us.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

Check/raise for value? Lead for fun? I'm not really sure the "optimal" line, as the button complicates things. Heads up I'd check/raise all day long. There's really no way to protect our hand from the turn cards we don't want to see. Donking might work if the CO would raise some weaker hands and charge our calling station 2 cold. Then we could call down from there unless the board gets really dangerous.

I'm leaning towards betting just because I would hate to see this get checked through, and the CO could always raise for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, verse a 34/21, this is never getting checked through.

[TheKentock]

Re-link? This is a situation where I usually bet, I would love to read some c/r literature

[Koss]

[ QUOTE ]

Thing is, verse a 34/21, this is never getting checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right, but I just kept thinking about this -

"I don't know anything about him postflop"

I agree that heads up he's betting it every time, but with a calling station of a button in the hand he may hesitate to bet his Ax here.

[Redd]

IMO I see this flop checked through against any random opponent who pfrs &lt;5% of the time. I would assume an unknown to play as the average amalgamation of all opponents and speculate a similarly low number.

[Boolean]

/grunch/
I'm not sure if I make this call preflop myself, even if he is raising like a complete donk, this may not be one of those times.

On the flop, if I did call this, I'd probably bet straight out and call a raise. If UI on the T, I'll bet/fold. Though that sounds pretty lame, I'd like other thoughts.

[GTSamIAm]

What about bet/calling the flop, folding if button 3-bets, and then donkbetting the turn? If CO raises us, we can fold, if not, there's lots of hands he'd raise the flop with and call the turn with.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
/grunch/
I'm not sure if I make this call preflop myself, even if he is raising like a complete donk, this may not be one of those times.



[/ QUOTE ]

Given his position, and his high raising percentage, this is a pretty standard call preflop.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Re-link? This is a situation where I usually bet, I would love to read some c/r literature

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the link: Betting into the PFR (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=3568455&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1)

It's not specifically aimed at check-raising or situations like this, but it's close. The link refers to times where you limp in and the player immediately after you raises and you're in a multi-way pot.

[LoaferGee12]

Your thoughts on this hand Aaron?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Your thoughts on this hand Aaron?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we've got the best hand when that flop comes down, before any of the action. This is based on villain's PFR and the fact that it's not often for us both to pair the king.

It's either WA/WB or check-raising the flop. I lean towards check-raising when I think villain is weak-loose postflop (this squeezes more money out of him when he's chasing with Ax and will try to take a free card on the turn -- or if I'm 3-bet, I can trust that he's got me outkicked and get away on the turn or river, depending on the pot size and whether I improve). In this case, I suspect villain is probably aggro enough to keep betting, so I'll take WA/WB. This will also help build a postflop read on him. Having a loose donk in the middle to pad the pot is nice. On a flop like this, if he doesn't have the flush draw he has 3-5 outs to beat us. The flop call is already very thin for him and he's probably going to call a turn bet as well (without odds).

If the flush card falls and he wakes up, it isn't too bad because the action will probably be CO bets, button raises, and you fold to two bets and lose no sleep over it.

[LoaferGee12]

The only problem with this is that he may be checking the turn with Ax if we are still 3-way. What do you think of check-raising the flop if 3-way, but playing WA/WB if button folds out.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem with this is that he may be checking the turn with Ax if we are still 3-way. What do you think of check-raising the flop if 3-way, but playing WA/WB if button folds out.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real problem is the lack of postflop read. 21% PFR is a lot, so there's reason to think he's quite aggressive. I don't think this guy will check the turn very often. To give some perspective, if I had AT here, I would autobet the flop and worry about giving a free flush card on the turn or having to face a river bet if I check behind. So I'd sometimes bet here and take a free showdown (my reads on the other two players in the pot help dictate this - if they make loose flop calls, I'm leaning more towards a *VALUE* bet, and if they don't, I'm more inclined to think I need the free card). Of course, I'm not calling a river donkbet UI, but many players like A-high on ragged boards enough that they'll pay it off -- especially after leading all streets and making a big pot for themselves. Hands like QQ-TT also have a tough time folding to a river donk.

But this is all speculative. I think either line is fine.