Party 30+3 - Who's the moron?

[michw]

NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry FeeLevel:5 Blinds(75/150)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: AtlBrvs4Life ( $435 )
Seat 2: Anonymous 2+2er ( $940 )
Seat 3: ditch7 ( $1715 )
Seat 6: blipbloop ( $2290 )
Seat 7: Ozone7777 ( $780 )
Seat 8: CASS32 ( $1260 )
Seat 9: michw ( $580 )
Trny:17470141 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to michw [ 6h 7h ]
CASS32 folds.
michw is all-In [580]
AtlBrvs4Life folds.
anonymous 2+2er is all-In [940]
ditch7 folds.
blipbloop folds.
Ozone7777 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, Qc, Kd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
michw shows [ 6h, 7h ] a pair of sevens.
anonymous 2+2er shows [ Ah, 9c ] high card ace.
anonymous 2+2er wins 360 chips from side pot #1 with high card ace.
michw wins 1385 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.

The anonymous 2+2er immediately called me a moron following the hand. Am I really a moron for pushing here? I 4 table the 30+3's and literally make pushes like this all the time when I'm short rather than pay the blinds again. If I don't push here what's my plan? Play my BB regardless? Pay the blinds and leave myself with 350 chips if I don't pick up a hand? I searched the previous hands and there wasn't a better situation to push. Either the pot was already opened when I had decent cards or I'm pushing with a much worse hand than 67s. Pushing w/ 67s here seems automatic to me. If anything, calling off 2/3rd's of my stack w/ A9 seems much worse to me and is a play I rarely make given that stack size.

Ironically, we ended up getting heads up and anonymous 2+2er took it down. The anonymouse 2+2er is a regular on this forum and I respect his opinion. That's why I'm posting this, so I hope he doesn't feel slighted. I'm called a moron on a semi-daily basis by the fish, but wasn't expecting to hear it from a 2+2er that I respect. I was very surprised that he would disagree with this push given how automatic it seemed to me. Do I have a huge leak in my game? He ended up apologizing for the name calling and we discussed the hand for a while following this. However, we never came to an agreement as to who was the real moron on this hand. That's for you to decide.

[GtrHtr]

he was a moran for calling you.

[Iamafish]

He's either saying that cuz he's mad, or to try and get in your head.

Why do you guys still berate others?

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]

The anonymouse 2+2er is a regular on this forum and I respect his opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many a 2+2er seem to post better than they play.

[runner4life7]

i will say I am a moron for being a jerk to him, something I've been working on. It's less frequent but still happens unfortunately. I do not think my call is bad at all first of all. And with his push I am still working on low stack early position pushes but I think I just push any 2 next hand.

[bluefeet]

funny...sgpt says they are equally marginal:

giving you: 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs
he calls w/: 55+,ATo+,A9s+ - with A9o being +.4

giving.............(avg: 66+,ATs+,AJo+, loose: 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+)
BB "average"
SB "loose"
Button "loose"
CO "average'
CO+1 "loose'

you push w/: 22+,A4o+,A2s+,K9o+,K2s+,Q8o+,Q4s+,J8o+,J6s+,T8o+,T 6s+,98o,96s+,86s+,76s,65s - with 76o being +.4


glad u guys made nice at the end

[runner4life7]

yeah i felt like an ass and was mad that I would do that to a 2+2er, random person i could care less. But this is why I need to just stop doing it.

[Slim Pickens]

My first instinct: The push was marginal but certainly not bad. He was a moran to call.

after SNGPT: The push was marginal but certainly not bad. It was a good call.

I need to learn to call more.

[tigerite]

I actually wanted to go for 'neither', but there was no option. So I went slightly for michw as I actually think the push is marginally worse than the call.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]

funny...sgpt says they are equally marginal:

giving you: 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs
he calls w/: 55+,ATo+,A9s+ - with A9o being +.4

giving.............(avg: 66+,ATs+,AJo+, loose: 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+)
BB "average"
SB "loose"
Button "loose"
CO "average'
CO+1 "loose'

you push w/: 22+,A4o+,A2s+,K9o+,K2s+,Q8o+,Q4s+,J8o+,J6s+,T8o+,T 6s+,98o,96s+,86s+,76s,65s - with 76o being +.4


glad u guys made nice at the end

[/ QUOTE ]

The call is marginal assuming that nobody wakes up with a real hand behind you. IMO this makes the call neutral at best.

[tigerite]

This would be a push if all folded to the 2+2er with A9o, therefore, the dead chips from the small stack push make it more so, not less.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]

funny...sgpt says they are equally marginal:

giving you: 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs
he calls w/: 55+,ATo+,A9s+ - with A9o being +.4

giving.............(avg: 66+,ATs+,AJo+, loose: 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+)
BB "average"
SB "loose"
Button "loose"
CO "average'
CO+1 "loose'

you push w/: 22+,A4o+,A2s+,K9o+,K2s+,Q8o+,Q4s+,J8o+,J6s+,T8o+,T 6s+,98o,96s+,86s+,76s,65s - with 76o being +.4


glad u guys made nice at the end

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see why caller should use the range you give on top, but it's not quite fair since the range was actually a lot bigger. That's a minor point at best and assumes he has some kind of a good read, which he doesn't or he wouldn't call him a moron.

The bigger problem is that this analysis leaves the 3 people yet to act out of the call decision.

I don't think either play is moronic, but I'm more down with the push. Lorinda 3:16.

[tigerite]

Oh, by the way SB will call with a heck of a lot more than 'loose' range, I would say. BB would be more close to the 'loose' range and SB probably even around 'maniac', look at his stack, the blinds and the amount the OP is pushing..

Who's the moron?
You may choose only one

...... michw
...... anonymous 2+2er
...... Both
..X.. Neither

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
The call is marginal assuming that nobody wakes up with a real hand behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The bigger problem is that this analysis leaves the 3 people yet to act out of the call decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, by the way SB will call with a heck of a lot more than 'loose' range, I would say. BB would be more close to the 'loose' range and SB probably even around 'maniac', look at his stack, the blinds and the amount the OP is pushing..

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Just thought some numbers might bring to light an option not provided on the pole. Forgot my "range" disclaimer.

[fluorescenthippo]

neither?..so you for not having this as an option /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
My first instinct: The push was marginal but certainly not bad. He was a moran to call.

after SNGPT: The push was marginal but certainly not bad. It was a good call.

I need to learn to call more.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't say that, por favor.

[michw]

I'm glad we made nice at the end also. I'm pretty surprised by the SGPT results that show both decisions to be marginal rather than a clear-cut push for me and a clear-cut fold for him. But that's why I posted the hand. I probably push too frequently in these situations (would have probably pushed a worse hand) and don't call enough when the SS are desperate (I muck hands like AJ and 66 pretty frequently in these situations). The few ICM calculations I've ran through have all been done manually so it's probably time to purchase this tool.

[Slim Pickens]

+$EV is +$EV, whether it's pushing 96o or calling with A9.

[jon462]

I am much more inclined to take a turn through the blinds than push junk utg. Id rather call a push by button or SB with junk than push junk utg. Given how often shorties push junk utg, i dont think the call was bad at all. However, he is a moran x10 for calling you a moran, whether he knew you were 2+2 or not. (most especially if he did not)

[pooh74]

Being a moron here has little to with the push or the call. To me it has more to do with him calling you a moron for pushing.

[Hornacek]

Forget about EV and ICM for a second...

a) Runner4life called with A9o, assuming he was ahead. Otherwise, he wouldn't have called.

b) Despite knowing he was ahead, he should have known that he could also lose the hand.

c) He lost the hand.

In summary, he's not a moron for calling, but calling you a moron was uncalled for. Your hand is EXACTLY what he wanted you to have. If you woke up with AA that hand, I'm sure he would be feeling rather dumb right now.

[DarthIgnurnt]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i felt like an ass and was mad that I would do that to a 2+2er, random person i could care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

my vote was that neither was a moran until i read this.

[runner4life7]

not to justify it, but it was early in the day and just kept losing after making plays I was glad I made. Also this kind of stuff keeps me occupied at tables sometimes as I get bored. My last post on this thread, hopefully I dont do this again.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Your M is slightly over 2. In HOH2, Harrington advocating pushing first in from any position with almost any 2 cards when your M gets below 5.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I am much more inclined to take a turn through the blinds than push junk utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking a turn through the blinds in this case means half his stack. Even if he doubles up after making it through the blinds he's right back where he started, needing to make a move.

I also don't think 6,7s is junk, since he's unlikely to be dominated and has the outside shot at making a str8 or a flush.

Even though this is marginally +EV I still like the push with those blinds coming up.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am much more inclined to take a turn through the blinds than push junk utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking a turn through the blinds in this case means half his stack. Even if he doubles up after making it through the blinds he's right back where he started, needing to make a move.

I also don't think 6,7s is junk, since he's unlikely to be dominated and has the outside shot at making a str8 or a flush.

Even though this is marginally +EV I still like the push with those blinds coming up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Vote here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3976790&an=0&page=0#Post 3976790)

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Your M is slightly over 2. In HOH2, Harrington advocating pushing first in from any position with almost any 2 cards when your M gets below 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

M, M, M. Blah, [censored], blah.

[Melchiades]

You really like M dont you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The Don]

'Neither' is the obvious answer here.

Lets look at this logically: He thinks you are a moron for raising AI with such a weak hand so he must have put you on a better hand yet he is willing to call you for about 2/3rds of his stack with just A9.

Obviously he is the moron.

[runner4life7]

no where does it say that I put him on a better hand. I figured he was pushing a wide range which he should, and it was more frustration that I made the right call, which Ill be the first to say is immature. But i was calling with A9 thinking he had a tight range, thats just dumb to think that I would do that.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i felt like an ass and was mad that I would do that to a 2+2er, random person i could care less. But this is why I need to just stop doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, this attitude sucks.

[michw]

I've finished playing for the day (-2 buyins in 17 tournies) and just took down 2 train wreck (http://www.hempology.com/archives/001347.html) b-loads. Now I'm starting to feel bad for starting this thread, especially after reading the latest post. Sorry Runner, you're catching quite a bit of flack, and that wasn't my intention. What the heck did I expect though? I guess I'm somewhat naive when I haven't been smoking. LOL. There have been some good reponses though, which I've learned from, so thanks everyone.

[raptor517]

i dont think either of you made a bad play. in yer spot im shoving damn near any 2, and if hes good enough to pick up on that, A9 is clearly +ev to get it in with. holla

[runner4life7]

actually mich im glad you made this post for two reasons so dont feel bad at all. I need to push more in early position low stacked, and i need to stop being a jerk.