KQo Checkup [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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SippinSoma

11-17-2005, 03:31 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Standard right? What if villain is fishy? What if he's very good?

The_Curtain

11-17-2005, 04:09 PM

While a read on villian would be helpful, I like all streets. I think the river is a bet - fold to raise, as this is a value bet if villian would call down with a lesser queen or a lower pair.

I think the villian is looking for an overcall from the BB on the turn. Unless the Button is really loose, the pre-flop and flop cold calls are a little alarming. Looks like a flush draw to me. I don't think you are beating anything but a bluff on a busted draw.

The Dude

11-17-2005, 04:14 PM

River check-raises are never bluffs. Fold. Next hand.

FWIW, it looks like you opponent waited until the river to check-raise his flush. Although other hands are possible too (Q8, 88, etc.), that's his most likely hand.

JojoDiego

11-17-2005, 04:27 PM

Dude, that wasn't a check-raise, just a regular old raise. Should he therefore make the call getting 12-1?

icepick

11-17-2005, 04:34 PM

I limp KQo in EP in most cases.

Flop fine. Turn, I'm worried, but betting anyways.

River, I bet. FWIW, I call the raise.

Forbillz

11-17-2005, 04:40 PM

SenecaJim

11-17-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I limp KQo in EP in most cases.

Flop fine. Turn, I'm worried, but betting anyways.

River, I bet. FWIW, I call the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

11-17-2005, 05:14 PM

SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

SippinSoma

11-17-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

[/ QUOTE ]

Me aggro 2p2 me like hand me raise.

krimson

11-17-2005, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

[/ QUOTE ]

Me aggro 2p2 me like hand me raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

11-17-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While a read on villian would be helpful, I like all streets. I think the river is a bet - fold to raise, as this is a value bet if villian would call down with a lesser queen or a lower pair.

I think the villian is looking for an overcall from the BB on the turn. Unless the Button is really loose, the pre-flop and flop cold calls are a little alarming. Looks like a flush draw to me. I don't think you are beating anything but a bluff on a busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, and your opponent would have to be REALLY fishy if it was a busted draw that you were up against. I like all streets, although i may have check-called the river as most draws made it and top pair is vulnerable to a number of hands, but your still getting 11-1 if you check-call the river. If you are willing to sacrifice a big bet to find out where you are at on the river, you might as well show down for the same price, right

shant

11-17-2005, 07:56 PM

Not misplayed on every street.

TaintedRogue

11-17-2005, 08:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Standard right? What if villain is fishy? What if he's very good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is going to call your River bet with a hand other than Q, smaller kicker? Since two of the players are in the blinds, you have a better chance of being up against a str8, flush, or two pair. The str8 and/or two pair may be looking to ck/call a possible flush, and the flush looking to ck/raise your aggressive betting.

If I was in the blind with one of those made hands, and knew you 2b one who bets TPTC as a value bet on the River......well, I'm check/raising.

Why risk having to give up the pot to a raise by the Button, or a ck/raise bluff by the Blinds? I just don't see enough weaker hands possible that would call your value bet on the River.

I just got back from Atlantic City, playing 10/20, and recall one hand where I had AK in EP and hit nothing all the way the River, but was betting all the way. I bet the River, and my remaining opponent raised. I could make this bet, because I had a good read on my remaining opponent, but was surprised by his raise. I called, primarily because there were several players who say the Flop and a few who saw the Turn, so it was a good size pot. Plus, I could not see my remaining opponent not raising the Turn if he had had the Queen, which was the only card in the playing zone. He had nothing.

Of all the sessions I played during my 3 day visit, one element was present in all of them: Too much bluffing. So, on the River, I ck/call my lone pair hands.

TaintedRogue

11-17-2005, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While a read on villian would be helpful, I like all streets. I think the river is a bet - fold to raise, as this is a value bet if villian would call down with a lesser queen or a lower pair.

I think the villian is looking for an overcall from the BB on the turn. Unless the Button is really loose, the pre-flop and flop cold calls are a little alarming. Looks like a flush draw to me. I don't think you are beating anything but a bluff on a busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think he is beating anything but a bluff on a busted draw, why should he bet out? Why not use that bet to call with and preserve his chance of winning the pot? Are there that many holdings that his opponents could have that they would call his River bet with?

SippinSoma

11-17-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not misplayed on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every street was not misplayed, or not every street was misplayed?

shant

11-17-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not misplayed on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every street was not misplayed, or not every street was misplayed?

[/ QUOTE ]
What I mean was every street was not misplayed in my opinion.

MisterKing

11-17-2005, 08:30 PM

I limp KQo here pre-flop, or fold it depending on conditions. You're coldcalled by tons of players and out of position much of the time in the Party 2/4 games.

Postflop, I hate your flop move. You make a critical error by raising the flop, and it will cost you the pot a lot of the time. Call this flop bet and raise any safe turn card. When you raise the flop, you offer the players to your left 5.5:1 on a call, and will inflate the pot such that the turn there will be no way to shut out draws with 6-7 outs or more, which is to say most draws.

If you'd played the flop right, you'd also have a ton more information on the turn. Reason being, BB would likely bet his hand again, you can raise, and if you're 3-bet by button you know you're beat. If he calls two bets, you may or may not be good and can re-evaluate on the river.

Button punked you with a flush, and you probably knew it before you bet the river, so why not c/c if you're gonna use a bet? Unless button is a total calling station, I don't see the utility in bet/folding here.

MisterKing

11-17-2005, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

[/ QUOTE ]

Me aggro 2p2 me like hand me raise. Me lose money doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

hobbsmann

11-17-2005, 09:22 PM

Holy [censored] are we really getting into a discussion on not raising KQo preflop UTG? Personally I raise this 100% of the time UTG, but I also don't think it is a leak either way. There is a quote in SSHE about multiple hour long debates about what the appropriate play is with KQo UTG and the conclusion Sklanksy came to was the either way it is unimportant. Meh is my final answer......

toss

11-17-2005, 09:22 PM

The only draw I'm worried about is a flush draw. Theres no way we can defend against it by calling the flop and raising the turn as they'll still be getting sufficient odds. What other draws are you wrried about? I raise the flop for value.

hobbsmann

11-17-2005, 09:24 PM

shant

11-17-2005, 09:26 PM

Yo Hobbs it's really not worth starting a discussion about because the AJo and KQo UTG raise debate is endless and has been beaten into the ground around here. At this point I think we should just leave it to preference. We even had Jesus come through here and even the son of God couldn't convince everyone. FWIW, I agree with you.

Piiop

11-17-2005, 09:30 PM

Dudes....are we really debating preflop here??? It's 8-handed and he's UTG+1. This is a clear, easy raise. No debating.

I think the hand is fine and I would play it the same. The river bet has value from worse Q's and little pairs that had draws.

uw_madtown

11-17-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dudes....are we really debating preflop here??? It's 8-handed and he's UTG+1. This is a clear, easy raise. No debating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, seriously. I could see debating it if it were 10 handed and UTG, but... seriously. This is a raise.

Hand looks fine to me.

ReadyEddie

11-17-2005, 09:53 PM

yeah i raise this PF too..

I know we have no reads on villain and that sucks, but is there any merit to trying to induce a bluff on this river? I mean button CC preflop, so i dont see a hand he has thats worse than yours at the river. With his range I think you can check this river and see if he tries to bluff at this. Cause i dont think he's calling anything you beat.

?

Nick C

11-17-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if villain is fishy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I like your line.

[ QUOTE ]
What if he's very good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I don't like that turn card at all and think there's a really good chance we're in trouble once it falls (if we weren't already).

[ QUOTE ]
Standard right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to admit that against an unknown, I'm really tempted to check-call the river. The thing is, if Villain is reasonable, then your chances of being best are not very good.

And, unless 2/4 has changed a lot over the last few months, you are going to get popped on the river by a hand like 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on occasion.

QTip

11-17-2005, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yo Hobbs it's really not worth starting a discussion about because the AJo and KQo UTG raise debate is endless and has been beaten into the ground around here. At this point I think we should just leave it to preference. We even had Jesus come through here and even the son of God couldn't convince everyone. FWIW, I agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWJD?

mowz

11-18-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yo Hobbs it's really not worth starting a discussion about because the AJo and KQo UTG raise debate is endless and has been beaten into the ground around here. At this point I think we should just leave it to preference. We even had Jesus come through here and even the son of God couldn't convince everyone. FWIW, I agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWJD?

[/ QUOTE ]

He would turn one fish into a multitude of fishes to feed everyone's bankroll.

SippinSoma

11-18-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

[/ QUOTE ]

Me aggro 2p2 me like hand me raise. Me lose money doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play a certain game long enough to prove this, please share the secrets of immortality with me.

SippinSoma

11-18-2005, 03:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dudes....are we really debating preflop here??? It's 8-handed and he's UTG+1. This is a clear, easy raise. No debating.

I think the hand is fine and I would play it the same. The river bet has value from worse Q's and little pairs that had draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i raise this PF too..

I know we have no reads on villain and that sucks, but is there any merit to trying to induce a bluff on this river? I mean button CC preflop, so i dont see a hand he has thats worse than yours at the river. With his range I think you can check this river and see if he tries to bluff at this. Cause i dont think he's calling anything you beat.

?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this wraps up the river action. I think against the average unknown, I'll continue using this line because the average player at 2/4 is trustworthy and very bad postflop. This is not Q9 trying to push me off. But against more aggressive players, I think bet/folding this river can get dangerous and check/calling might be better. It's late though and I'll give it more thought tomorrow. Being in read-based situations without reads sucks.

11-18-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Standard right? What if villain is fishy? What if he's very good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm mostly worried if this guy is a solid player. If he's solid, the turn call makes sense (looking for an overcall from BB). If he's less than solid (your words: fishy), I think I make this call. Poorer players aren't going to think "let me get that overcall", they're going to jump out of their seats about hitting their draw and try to jam the pot. I think a poorer player raises this turn. The fact that he didn't makes this river fold vs. call read-dependent, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

How correct is Villain going for an overcall here with only one other opponent? Hero raised preflop and on the flop. Going for the turn overcall, why risk the BB not calling and losing us a BB? We're fairly certain Hero will call the raise with all the action he's given so far. Villain raising should gain an extra 1BB, while if the BB calls gives us the same 1BB. But if the BB folds we lose the 1BB.

~

Entity

11-18-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSH say limp with KQo in early postion.... But what do i know i am still new

[/ QUOTE ]

Me aggro 2p2 me like hand me raise. Me lose money doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the worst FYP's in a long time. KQo is an easy raise for me in almost all positions and the vast majority of good LHE players I know.

Rob

Noodles

11-18-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate your flop move. You make a critical error by raising the flop, and it will cost you the pot a lot of the time. Call this flop bet and raise any safe turn card. When you raise the flop, you offer the players to your left 5.5:1 on a call, and will inflate the pot such that the turn there will be no way to shut out draws with 6-7 outs or more, which is to say most draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serious? he raises flop with TP/TK and its a mistake?

Noodles

11-18-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only draw I'm worried about is a flush draw. Theres no way we can defend against it by calling the flop and raising the turn as they'll still be getting sufficient odds

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly ,calling this flop with kq here is very very weak and sad /images/graemlins/wink.gif

JerseyTom

11-18-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Postflop, I hate your flop move. You make a critical error by raising the flop, and it will cost you the pot a lot of the time. Call this flop bet and raise any safe turn card. When you raise the flop, you offer the players to your left 5.5:1 on a call, and will inflate the pot such that the turn there will be no way to shut out draws with 6-7 outs or more, which is to say most draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is madness, pure madness. One of the easiest flop value raises in the history of poker. Why even play hands like KQ if you can't value bet/raise a Qxx flop?

Don't worry about "giving flush draws improper odds". You can't unless it's HU. Get their $$$ while they're drawing.

If button held the nut flush draw, he missed an easy flop 3-bet anyway...

I thought Hero played this fine, though I can see an agrument for check-calling the river vs a tricky opponent if we really need to show down.

Tom

I am fish

11-18-2005, 03:41 PM

I also think waiting till the turn to raise a safe card may be better because you get bad players to call big bets on draws they're only 20% to make.

Want to hear more discussion on this issue.

SippinSoma

11-18-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I also think waiting till the turn to raise a safe card may be better because you get bad players to call big bets on draws they're only 20% to make.

Want to hear more discussion on this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no guarantee that flush draws will bet the turn UI.

matt hooley

11-18-2005, 06:45 PM

flop raise is standard and mandatory imo, you must protect your hand.
why are people so quick to be afraid of flush draws anyway?

river fold seem very weak. I value bet and call a raise against an unknown getting 12-1. could someone expalin why so many people like the fold here?
how can you give up this pot claiming to know villian has you beat 92.4% of the time?

Adam22

11-18-2005, 06:54 PM

i read this whole thread mistaking the flop play for the pre-flop play, so i thought you were 3betting an UTG raise from an unknown and that nobody said anything about it. my world was caving n for a minute there.

MrEngenic

11-18-2005, 08:56 PM

I don't think it's standard but I don't think its a very big mistake either. I like to call here.

silkyslim

11-18-2005, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I limp KQo here pre-flop, or fold it depending on conditions. You're coldcalled by tons of players and out of position much of the time in the Party 2/4 games.

Postflop, I hate your flop move. You make a critical error by raising the flop, and it will cost you the pot a lot of the time. Call this flop bet and raise any safe turn card. When you raise the flop, you offer the players to your left 5.5:1 on a call, and will inflate the pot such that the turn there will be no way to shut out draws with 6-7 outs or more, which is to say most draws.

If you'd played the flop right, you'd also have a ton more information on the turn. Reason being, BB would likely bet his hand again, you can raise, and if you're 3-bet by button you know you're beat. If he calls two bets, you may or may not be good and can re-evaluate on the river.

Button punked you with a flush, and you probably knew it before you bet the river, so why not c/c if you're gonna use a bet? Unless button is a total calling station, I don't see the utility in bet/folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]
is this a troll account? This sounds like a table coach on Pacific poker. gotta raise KQ pf, raise the flop, bet/fold river to get value from Q's and random pairs that will check through and lose the same when you are behind as a check call. if i was villain i would not see this as a bluffing opportunity so im not worried about folding the best hand.

Entity

11-18-2005, 10:03 PM

Christ almighty I'm sick of this thread. I think you played it perfectly soma.