$11 PP - Where's the line between push-botting and push-poossy?

[playtitleist]

The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
playtitleist ???

edited out the funk

I think this is a bit much. It's not terrible though.

By the way, you might want to edit your PP name out.

[jb9]

I don't like pushing with any 2 unless I have to or my table image makes it more likley than normal that I will steal the blinds.

Since you don't have to and your table image is such that the blinds know you could have a weak hand, I would fold.

However, if the 2 small stacks are desperately trying to fold into the money, it wouldn't be bad to try to steal.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand before immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair from the and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

[/ QUOTE ]

First thing I'd do is send an email to support, asking them where the heck this 5th guy came from! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I hear what you're saying. Funny thing, at this level of blinds, you'd be suprised how little "image" is coming into play. ESPECIALLY those two in your blinds. They have one thing on thier mind: survival

You have ideal situation here. If BB was shorter than SB...and he had a few less chips ta'boot, then I wouldn't want to be pushing this into him. With his apparent chance to outlast SB, his calling range here is still pretty tight. I haven't ran the numbers yet, but I'm guessing you're pushing any two cards here (giving both a tighter than maniac range).

Your "let one go..." thoughts are not off base. But despite your chip lead, you are by no means in a position to pass up on too many push chances for the sake of your image.

[bluefeet]

SB range: 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+
BB range: 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs

you push: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,72+ /images/graemlins/wink.gif,62+,52+,42+,32s (99%)

not a good time to give a free pass

[junkmail3]

Given your big stack position and the state of the blinds (both stacks and blind size), I would push this.

If they call, you are still in decent position to fight for the money if you lose.

The blinds are so huge and very important to take from these guys right now.

This would be an excellent time for whoever is making the decisions on your account to push.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]

First thing I'd do is send an email to support, asking them where the heck this 5th guy came from! /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh. That's what I get for trying to get this posted before I run to a meeting.

[ QUOTE ]

I hear what you're saying. Funny thing, at this level of blinds, you'd be suprised how little "image" is coming into play. ESPECIALLY those two in your blinds. They have one thing on thier mind: survival

You have ideal situation here. If BB was shorter than SB...and he had a few less chips ta'boot, then I wouldn't want to be pushing this into him. With his apparent chance to outlast SB, his calling range here is still pretty tight. I haven't ran the numbers yet, but I'm guessing you're pushing any two cards here (giving both a tighter than maniac range).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, so this is exactly what I based my decision on. In fact, I gave merit to the last hand by figuring SB and BB wouldn't think I would push crap immediately after getting called on a bottom pair push. Is that a valid thought?

[ QUOTE ]

Your "let one go..." thoughts are not off base. But despite your chip lead, you are by no means in a position to pass up on too many push chances for the sake of your image.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the end, I think this is what I need to know. Is there a chip position (other than t8000 thanks) in which I can just let it go?

[ZeroPointMachine]

I think there is a good arguement for passing in some of these "any 2" button push situations. ICM ignores the possibility of you folding and the SB pushing and getting called by the BB. When this happens it is hugely +EV for you regardless of who wins.

At this level some of the biggest mistakes your opponents make are in blind v blind situations. These mistakes are always +EV for you. When one player knocks out or cripples another on the bubble your EV generally jumps about +5%, not the +.5% that makes the push seem correct. Obviously these +5% jumps without risking a chip don't have to happen very often to justify passing on a +.5% move here or there.

The other factor has to do with the specific stack situation here. The second stack is on your right, which really slows him down because he is afraid of you busting him. This means that you are going to be in the push any 2 from the button situation virtually every orbit. This is not a bad thing, but as you push every button hand determining SB/BBs calling ranges gets a tad more difficult. This makes it harder to determine if you really should be pushing any two.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
figuring SB and BB wouldn't think I would push crap immediately after getting called on a bottom pair push. Is that a valid thought?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the beauty of the bubble, and the RoR given the chip disparity. it doesn't matter what they think!

...to an extent. calling ranges are surely adjusted. intuitively or with aid of an ICM calc, there are certian situations that become apparent, where ones calling range just CAN'T be adjusted to that extent.

if you told BB before the deal, that you are pushing any two cards (which he probably has gathered anyway), he STILL cannot make this a "+EV" call without 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KQo,KTs+. representing only 11% of hands, you can see that the LIKELIHOOD of these holdings - thus the call, warrents you pushing.

do all villians know intuitively what the +EV calling range is? of course not. do you raise the +EV "marginal" bar a tad to account for such things? reasonable to do so, sometimes the conditions favor adjusting the other direction.

CALLING for all your chips is a more basic skill IMO. you have two primary consideration: you WILL go broke if you call & lose. you CAN'T go broke (yet) if you fold. this is an understanding any/all opponents have despite any concept of bubble play.

recognizing when to PUSH is what gives us our edge. we push for to reasons: because we must, and because we can. both taking on a different type of understanding.

an over simplified way of looking at it...

pushing because we must (short end of the chip distribution) - given my position, the number of opponents behind me, the calling range i put them on (considering chip disparity, image/recognition of your push, etc.)...ARE THESE TWO CARDS STRONG ENOUGH TO PUSH?

pushing because we can (short handed, presenting RoR to callers behind, gaining these chips gaines us substantial equity) - before even considering these two cards...given my calling opponents chip position, their likelihood of survival despite folding (committed-ness), 1) what range of hands could they call with, and 2) WHAT ARE THE CHANCES THEY HAVE THIS RANGE OF HANDS?

as that "chance" increases, consideration for your own perile, image, etc. increase - ultimately resulting in a pushing range decrease (i.e. your two cards <- last consideration).

worded poorly/incompletely i know.

considering THIS hand, this "chance" is slim enough to not lend credence to the other factors. so...you get to push ANY TWO!!

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

edited out the funk

[/ QUOTE ]

What, exactly, would be the point of pushing this hand given your stack?

To win the blinds.

lol, one would have to be a true badass to push anything except for 32o and mucking that in this spot.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

edited out the funk

[/ QUOTE ]

What, exactly, would be the point of pushing this hand given your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer a question with a question: When do you have enough chips?

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

edited out the funk

[/ QUOTE ]

What, exactly, would be the point of pushing this hand given your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer a question with a question: When do you have enough chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and I understand picking up the blinds here. I asked my question from a perspective of risk v reward which seems fairly slim here.

This strikes me as a tough problem. (Assuming 150/300 blinds.) If SB and BB call 8%, you want to push any two; if they call 10%, you want to push 75%; if they call 12%, you want to push 40%; if they call 14%, you want to push 23%. I doubt you can really narrow their range enough to answer this question definitively.

[playtitleist]

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[ QUOTE ]
The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

edited out the funk

[/ QUOTE ]

What, exactly, would be the point of pushing this hand given your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer a question with a question: When do you have enough chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and I understand picking up the blinds here. I asked my question from a perspective of risk v reward which seems fairly slim here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm actually serious. And in my mind that is a pivotal piece to this. Everything tells me to push it. But at what point can I say, "I have enough chips, no need to risk 74o"?

[FlyWf]

You have enough chips when you have all of them. Say you triple up on the first hand. Next hand, you pick up, oh QQ in MP. Folded to you, do you muck it because 2400 chips is certainly enough?

It's always a balance of hand strength and situation. But in this specific case I'd fold it. SB is almost certainly pushing here and BB is heavily incented to call.

[ZeroPointMachine]

IMO something that is being overlooked is the fact that those chips in the SB/BB aren't going anywhere. The blinds only go up. You are very likely to have a much more positive pushing situation on the next orbit. If you push here and lose, you are not going to be in the push any 2 spot from the button on the next orbit. Quite a few good things can happen between now and then if you let them. I'm not saying that pushing is not a positive play, but it is not neccesarily optimal. If you and UTG had opposite stacks then pushing would be mandatory because you are much less likely to have the opportunity next orbit.

[eniven]

I'm pretty new to SNG's and the concept of "push-botting"...

Can someone please point me towards a good thread about the theory on push-botting?

Do people adopt push-botting styles primarily to deal with multi-tabling? Or would you still play a push-bot style while playing only one table?

Thanks for the help,
Eric

[GtrHtr]

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The other day I was afraid to push on the bubble. Now I may be over doing it.

My image is likely that of an agressive big stack. The hand immediately before this I called the BB, then went all in on a rag flop with bottom pair and scott50111 called with a gut shot, making two pair. Much of the last orbit dough_ray_me and I had been swapping all-ins and the other two had been left to try and stay alive.

SB and BB really need to have a hand to call, even with me being a bully. So is this a push or do I let one go to relax the image a bit?

Seat 4: dough_ray_me (2055)
Seat 8: playtitleist (2990)
Seat 9: scott50111 (1280)
Seat 10: Spooky101 (1675)
scott50111 posts small blind (150)
Spooky101 posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to playtitleist [ 7c, 4s ]
dough_ray_me folds.
fbomsabound ???

edited out the funk

[/ QUOTE ]

What, exactly, would be the point of pushing this hand given your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer a question with a question: When do you have enough chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and I understand picking up the blinds here. I asked my question from a perspective of risk v reward which seems fairly slim here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm actually serious. And in my mind that is a pivotal piece to this. Everything tells me to push it. But at what point can I say, "I have enough chips, no need to risk 74o"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this situation is a close one, however, I think that with these blinds and the fact that you are 10 chips below 10BBs make this more risk than reward. I would fold this hand.

One aspect of bubble play that isn't talked about very much on the forum is the mistakes others make on the bubble which we need to allow them to make. SNGPT may very well say this is a push, that 72o is a push here but its also 10 chips away from giving you the default popup that says you have over 10BBs, condsider other options. The most common mistake our opponents make is poor calling standards. I think its likely that you will get called here by a "poor" calling hand which will have you dominated. AT comes to mind or K9. Its much better to pushbot a hand that can become something, like connected cards or suited cards.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I fold with this hand from the button. You're in great shape chip wise and your hand sucks. Not worth the risk. When I push from the button I like to have at least a Jack or better as one of my cards unless I am getting desperate, which you're not. I would likely push this from SB if I had not pushed a lot recently.