33 party - oesd on flop

[CarlSpackler]

How did I play this? I thought about checkraising allin on the turn, but since the villain's bet was so small, I decided to just calling was the better play. The villain is pretty fishy - plays too many hands and routinely underbets the pot.

Table Table 68932 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: HERO (745)
Seat 2: BOBBYphx (680)
Seat 3: kcroyals (665)
Seat 4: abergator (1420)
Seat 5: ljBeill (935)
Seat 7: calvinson (1270)
Seat 9: wildZer0 (755)
Seat 10: TennesseJed3 (1530)
HERO posts small blind (15)
BOBBYphx posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
kcroyals folds.
abergator folds.
ljBeill folds.
calvinson calls (30)
wildZer0 folds.
TennesseJed3 folds.
HERO calls (15)
BOBBYphx checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
HERO bets (60)
BOBBYphx folds.
calvinson raises (120) to 120
HERO calls (60)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ K/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
HERO checks.
calvinson bets (55)
HERO calls (55)
** Dealing River ** : [ 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
HERO checks.
calvinson bets (50)
HERO folds.

[jeffraider]

Pretty easy fold preflop. I normally just check-call small bets on these flops otherwise I give it up.

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Pretty easy fold preflop. I normally just check-call small bets on these flops otherwise I give it up.

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[bennies]

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Pretty easy fold preflop. I normally just check-call small bets on these flops otherwise I give it up.

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dam, forum is stingy tonight..

I also complete preflop. If I'm feeling unlucky I'll play the rest of the hand like you. However, with your read, a 3-bet on the flop is probably the best move.

i'm not a fan of betting oop with just a gutshot.
calling a minraise and then checking the turn looks incredibly fishy.
i'd be putting you all-in on any blank on the river.

you also have to think about pot control. i assume this is an attempt to steal a small pot, but hands like this often spiral out of control. check/call flop allows you to see your draw alot cheaper, and if you miss, you have an easy fold

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not a fan of betting oop with just a gutshot.
calling a minraise and then checking the turn looks incredibly fishy.
i'd be putting you all-in on any blank on the river.

you also have to think about pot control. i assume this is an attempt to steal a small pot, but hands like this often spiral out of control. check/call flop allows you to see your draw alot cheaper, and if you miss, you have an easy fold

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how is this a gut shot?

[microbet]

I would usually check the flop too, but I think everything you did was fine. I would also complete preflop.

[mosdef]

I think that this call preflop is way too loose. T9o is a terrible hand.

Anyway, having gotten into the siutation you're in, leading seems like a bad idea to me too. I guess that you're trying to pick up the pot, but with the hope of catching outs if you're called? That's all well and good, but the flop is not that scary to your opponents so I think this is too risky. Assuming I misclick called preflop, I would check-fold or check-call small bets.

Again, that's too loose preflop IMO. You got basically the best possible flop you could hope for and it's STILL hard to play profitably, as you've seen.

[Slim Pickens]

I don't mind the completion preflop. If the Villain has been underbetting the pot, check-calling (if he gives you odds to) is probably a better flop line than betting. Those kind of fishy players often like to slowplay a set or two pair just like the pros on TV, and since your draw beats whatever he's got if you hit it, let him slowplay into the ground, then overbet if you hit.

As for the turn and river. I think you made the correct play, but it sucks to create your own pot odds to pay off 1/4 of your chips on a draw.

[mosdef]

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I would usually check the flop too, but I think everything you did was fine. I would also complete preflop.

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I don't follow this at all. It seems like a waste of 15 chips. Why are we so keen on playing T9o out of position against 2 opponents, with the further posibility of having to fold without seeing a flop if BB raises. I am just not interested in this situation. Are you saying that you think the implied odds when you flop a monster are so huge relative the 15 chips that you call?

This just seems to go against my personal (possibly suboptimal, I admit) early stage mindset. I want to play ONLY hands where I have a good chance of getting paid off big. I don't see you getting enough flops here that put you in a position to extract lots of value from other hands. Most flops will not help you at all, and many that do help will leave you fighting tooth and nail and taking on risk just to pick up the pot. I want a good chance at getting the other guys' stacks in exchange for early tournament risk.

[jeffraider]

For those who think completing the SB is okay:

What DON'T you complete with and how are those hands so different than T9o?

[mosdef]

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For those who think completing the SB is okay:

What DON'T you complete with and how are those hands so different than T9o?

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I suppose this is a much more succinct way to express my feeling from my post below.

Perhaps it comes from having more comfort playing small stacks in level 3 and 4. Then others would be more comfortable throwing out the occasional wildly speculative bet in levels 1 and 2. But it's not for me.

[durron597]

FWIW I play it exactly the same.

[jeffraider]

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FWIW I play it exactly the same.

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Why lead the flop?

[bluefeet]

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I don't mind the completion preflop. If the Villain has been underbetting the pot, check-calling (if he gives you odds to) is probably a better flop line than betting

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Ditto.

There's no need to "slow him down" with your flop lead. Your loose/weak read is contradictory to this line. He's likely not folding + you should find check/calling a cheaper path to the river.

[microbet]

I don't think folding is terrible or anything.

Implied odds are the main reason for completing.

There are lots of ways to win besides stacking people when you get your straight, but that tips the scales here for me vs. a hand like T5o. T9 also has a reasonable chance of winning a small pot with top or second pair.

I wouldn't be surprised if a really good player could make a profit completing preflop with any two. However, In this spot, I only complete with something reasonably coordinated.

[mosdef]

Thanks for the reply.

I am going to continue folding this kind of thing. I don't see myself making money from it. I'd love to have a better player explain to me how to make money with such a weak hand in this spot, but until then it's a fold for me.

I like it. You're getting 5 to 1 preflop, so easy call.

Leading the flop is correct but I would bet less than the pot (probably 1/2 the pot so that the pot isn't too big on turn if you miss your draw on the turn).

He's getting 5 to 1 for his preflop call. There is no hand preflop that is a 5 to 1 advantage over T9o.

[mosdef]

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He's getting 5 to 1 for his preflop call. There is no hand preflop that is a 5 to 1 advantage over T9o.

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What are you talking about? It's not like he gets to check it down to the river for free from this point on. I don't understand the point of your post.

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Thanks for the reply.

I am going to continue folding this kind of thing. I don't see myself making money from it. I'd love to have a better player explain to me how to make money with such a weak hand in this spot, but until then it's a fold for me.

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T9o is an excellent for playing postflop. Not to be rude, but if you're waiting for Group 1 hands all day, then you're missing alot of opportunities to double up (or less) early on. I rarely go into the bubble shortstacked; the main reason is my postflop play in Levels 1&2 with small/medium connectors. People with one pairs are just dying to give you their chips.

[jeffraider]

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He's getting 5 to 1 for his preflop call. There is no hand preflop that is a 5 to 1 advantage over T9o.

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There is no hand that is a 5 to 1 advantage over 32o. Do you always complete that hand?

Pot odds can be taken too far, a lot of people seem to have read HOH and decided any time they're getting better than 4 to 1 that it's an instacall with any two.

[mosdef]

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Thanks for the reply.

I am going to continue folding this kind of thing. I don't see myself making money from it. I'd love to have a better player explain to me how to make money with such a weak hand in this spot, but until then it's a fold for me.

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T9o is an excellent for playing postflop. Not to be rude, but if you're waiting for Group 1 hands all day, then you're missing alot of opportunities to double up (or less) early on. I rarely go into the bubble shortstacked; the main reason is my postflop play in Levels 1&2 with small/medium connectors. People with one pairs are just dying to give you their chips.

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Fine, but you haven't explained your plan for extracting value in this hand, or which flops will generate value for you, and explained why there's enough such flops to justify the risk you take on by getting involved in a hand with T9o.

Also, there is a big difference between completing this at the 33s and at the 55s. I know you play the 55s from one of your other posts.

[Jbrochu]

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There is no hand that is a 5 to 1 advantage over 32o. Do you always complete that hand?

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I complete with almost anything when I'm getting 5-to-1 provided everybody's stacks are deep enough that I also have good implied odds. This probably would not be smart at Party with the small starting stacks but I play mostly at Stars.

[Slim Pickens]

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For those who think completing the SB is okay:

What DON'T you complete with and how are those hands so different than T9o?

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I wouldn't complete with 67o, probably not 78o... basically Sklansky Group 7 and better. T9o is not devoid of high card value, and most of the value of this hand is flopping 2nd pair and getting paid off on the flop by an obvious draw or lower PP. You won't win a big pot, but you can win a small one more often than you lose a big one. With your SB discount, I think a decent player can make the odds work out.

FWIW I forgot to consider the difference between 800 and 1000 chip structure so it's closer, but I still complete.

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Thanks for the reply.

I am going to continue folding this kind of thing. I don't see myself making money from it. I'd love to have a better player explain to me how to make money with such a weak hand in this spot, but until then it's a fold for me.

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T9o is an excellent for playing postflop. Not to be rude, but if you're waiting for Group 1 hands all day, then you're missing alot of opportunities to double up (or less) early on. I rarely go into the bubble shortstacked; the main reason is my postflop play in Levels 1&2 with small/medium connectors. People with one pairs are just dying to give you their chips.

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Fine, but you haven't explained your plan for extracting value in this hand, or which flops will generate value for you, and explained why there's enough such flops to justify the risk you take on by getting involved in a hand with T9o.

Also, there is a big difference between completing this at the 33s and at the 55s. I know you play the 55s from one of your other posts.

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Actually I play the 22s. I dabbled in the 33s and 55s to see what they're about. Don't have BR yet for anything above 22s yet.

So back to my reasoning. It's costing you 15 chips to see a flop that might net you, at the very least, 75 more chips. We know there are limpers (well, BB hasn't limped yet, but with one limper already, it's more likely than not that BB will check). So, we don't have to worry much about being priced out preflop by a subsequent raise.

We can assume that the first limper has a Group 2 through 4 hand. We're hoping for an OESD on the flop and one face card - the face card hopefully will hit one the opponents and give us implied odds. If we get the OESD on the flop, we're 30% to hit by river. And if we do hit, we're most likely getting a boatload of chips. If we hit nothing on the flop, we get out (15 chips gone - no biggie). For the times we get OESD on the flop, we lead (we can often take the pot by just leading). If turn is a blank and opponent prices us out, then we're outta there.

What I do is raise pf with connectors. 3 reasons for this: 1) I can take the pot preflop; 2) I can take the pot on the flop when an A/K/Q hits and I lead; and 3) when I do hit my straight, no one will suspect it since I raised pf.

This is all controversial I know - although it's recommended in a few books, including Harrington (although, admittedly, it's tougher to do in a 800 chip SNG than a MTT).

These hands are great for good post-flop players. It's +EV if you have good reads, can get away from a hand, etc.

[jeffraider]

Don't take any of this the wrong way, but what you're advocating is pretty much exactly opposite of my usual strategy. I'm always trying to learn though, so let me ask you a few questions:

1) I guess the first that's running through my mind is, I think that leading this flop is pretty bad, all things considered, and will get you into a bad siutation too often. Check-calling a small bet seems to be the best way to play this out, and I'd be surprised if anyone really disagrees too strenuously after a detailed analysis.

2) If you do agree that leading the flop is not as good as check-calling, don't you think that that's an argument against you or the OP completing these kind of SB hands? I feel fairly confident postflop and I don't even want to put myself into those sorts of situations. I guess the reason I do decently postflop is because I make postflop easier with preflop decisions like mucking this T9o.

3) Do you feel that "being good postflop" is enough to negate all of the inherent disadvantages of seeing a flop with this hand?

4) Being that there are very few "dream flops" for T9o do you think that it is really worth it? The way you recommend playing this really marginal flop is basically setting yourself up to win a small pot on the flop or build a large pot that you're most likely a 2:1 dog in, so I don't even think this flop can be considered "good." It's good only in that you flopped a draw of some kind at all.

5) Can you please describe the conditions under which you will typically raise preflop in the early levels of a Party 800-chipper with an unsuited (or maybe you meant suited-only) connector? You mentioned Harrington, who certainly does not recommend raising unsuited connectors and only rarely raises suited connectors, and does that only against thoughtful opponents who pay close attention to his play. Do you frequently raise with these hands or just occasionally, or what?

6) Your "2) I can take the pot on the flop when an A/K/Q hits and I lead" is interesting to me, as that seems to be pretty bad when stated like that just as a general rule. I know general rules aren't really that useful in poker, so if you don't mind posting some specific situations in which you will lead the flop with air when there is a AKQ card on it?

Anyways thanks in advance for replying if you do!

[microbet]

In a game where you can reasonably expect to push people off of draws and decent, but not great hands, without risking your stack, I think it is possible to play this way. That game is usually not found in the $22s.