(22) How not to play AQ

[golfcchs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t790)
Button (t895)
SB (t645)
BB (t800)
UTG (t870)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t60, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (t142.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t60</font>, Hero calls t60.

Turn: (t262.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t80</font>, Hero calls t80.

River: (t422.50) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets t150</font>, Hero folds.

I really dont like how I played any street here. First off pre flop, do you fold, call, or raise? Folding here seems really weak tight, but I dont like calling either. If you reraise, how much do you reraise for?

On the flop do you fold to this weak of a bet?

Rest of the hand was complete carp, so please help me out.

[Hornacek]

Fold preflop. Fold flop. I don't see calling any street.

[zambonidrivr]

call prefop.
fold flop.
standard

[splashpot]

I think calling preflop is ok. Folding is ok too. I would fold AQo against a raise level 1. The flop call sucks IMO. Either fold or raise to see where you're at. If you raise, fold if he doesn't give up right away.

[golfcchs]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Fold flop. I don't see calling any street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold AQs?

What hand do you need here to play? Keep in mind this is a 22 and raisers range could easily be 55+, AT+, KQ, or even bigger.

[bones]

I probably take a flop if it's suited, but you aren't losing anything by folding. If you're going to continue with this hand you'd better be raising the flop (or turn if you think that's more effective), but this is probably too cutesy for the 22s. I'd probably muck it.

[golfcchs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling preflop is ok. Folding is ok too. I would fold AQo against a raise level 1. The flop call sucks IMO. Either fold or raise to see where you're at. If you raise, fold if he doesn't give up right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did reraise on flop, how much?

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think calling preflop is ok. Folding is ok too. I would fold AQo against a raise level 1. The flop call sucks IMO. Either fold or raise to see where you're at. If you raise, fold if he doesn't give up right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did reraise on flop, how much?

[/ QUOTE ]
Make it 150-175. No need to go crazy. If he's got nothing, he'll go away. But usually I fold.

[nightlyraver]

Preflop: Usually fold; you need a real good reason to play here and it's quite read dependant.

Flop: You have nothing, so why call? Usually fold, but you can raise on rare occasions if you think Villian missed and is bluffing.

Turn: Now you REALLY have nothing - FOLD!

River: You played this street fine.

[Bigwig]

To an UTG raiser, I'm usually folding this preflop. I'd call if I knew I was going to see a multi-way pot, so I knew I'd get paid if I hit my flop hard. However, you're the first to call, so I'd fold.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Fold flop. I don't see calling any street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold AQs?

What hand do you need here to play? Keep in mind this is a 22 and raisers range could easily be 55+, AT+, KQ, or even bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was an UTG raiser, and he could easily be raising there also with QQ, KK, AA, or AK. With blinds at 10/15, there's generally a better time to get my money in than against an UTG raiser with a potential trouble hand. I usually just let this one go.

Note: I'm also 8-tabling, so I don't have time to be cute and make great reads this early in the tournament.

Since it is suited, I'd call pf. Fold flop, unles you read him as having AK/AQ/AT and think he will fold to a flop bet.

If your postflop play is strong enough, then you can call this PF. But if the board comes Q, 8, 3 rainbow, are you likely to go broke with this hand or not? If answer is yes, then dump it now.

Personally, I'm happy enough to call this PF raise being as the hand is suited, but I'm need to hit the flop very hard to get too involved here. AQo, I dump this PF.

IF I called this flop bet, the only reason would be to take this pot away on the turn as it seems the villian is betting very weak, HOWEVER this play really needs some reads to pull off, you need to know villian could fold 99 for example here if he got raised...

[ QUOTE ]
But if the board comes Q, 8, 3 rainbow, are you likely to go broke with this hand or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh.. yes. yes i am (usually)

[mosdef]

Frankly, I am a little surprised that most people suggest folding this preflop. I assume that this is at least partially because you are getting answers from multitabling pushbots who avoid all difficult situations early (NOTE: I am NOT criticizing such people. I am just saying that if you are 8-10 tabling you can justify this fold but IMO if you are 4 tabling or less you should be playing these hands because they are profitable if you're paying attention.)

Anyway, I notice that villain has 870 in chips and its still in level 1. Is he playing every second hand? Did he pick that up in one hand that didn't go to showdown? It's important.

My feeling is that the average 22 player has a wide range of hand preflop here, including weaker aces. Obviously you need to proceed with caution, but not with fold-AQ-level caution. If more people call behind, you are multiway with a pretty good multiway hand. If not, you are heads up with position with a hand that plays pretty good heads up as well. The worst that can happen is loony raises and reraises behind you, in which case you fold and watch to see which player takes down the pot and what they have.

Anyway your opponent follows through on the flop with a bet that's 1/2 pot sized. This looks like a blatant c-bet since the board is uncoordinated. You are very likely behind here, but you need to guess if this player is capable of folding to a reraise. Again, info about how he got his stack to 870 would be useful. If unavailable, I would fold by default. Raising is okay, but with no reads the chances are too high that he'll call or shove into you. So you let it go.

Anyway, I think your call preflop is okay as noted. I think a call on the flop is the worst possible move.

Finally, I am also surprised to hear people say that they call preflop with AQs but fold AQo. Come on, guys. Those hands aren't different enough to justify that.

[HesseJam]

I wanted to say reraise preflop because I am used to the 1500 Stars stack and even there this move would be at least debatable.

At the 800 games you should probably fold this if you cannot raise (and you can not). This is why those 800 games at Party suck. You need to be tight as a nun there.

[bones]

UTG+2 started the hand with 800 and it appears to be 3rd hand of the sng. Tough to get reads in this situation.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume that this is at least partially because you are getting answers from multitabling pushbots who avoid all difficult situations early (NOTE: I am NOT criticizing such people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, I don't see how anybody would consider being called a pushbot an criticism.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assume that this is at least partially because you are getting answers from multitabling pushbots who avoid all difficult situations early (NOTE: I am NOT criticizing such people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, I don't see how anybody would consider being called a pushbot an criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being sarcastic, but I will clarify anyway. By pushbot I mean someone who consciously accepts are lower return per tourney to play more tourneys, primarily by folding +EV situations early because they aren't +EV if you haven't had time to pay attention to previous hands and what opponents are raising/calling with. I am not suggesting that they are not as good as me. I am saying that the situation may be -EV to them because of the time constraints they accept, but it can be +EV to someone else. Not necessarily someone better, just someone following the play at the table more closely.

[pergesu]

You've got AQs in position, I think calling preflop is totally fine...unless you're gonna play it like this on the flop.

I would not raise this flop at all, because you will almost never get a better hand to fold, and you in fact don't get a lot of worse hands to fold either. It's important to realize that you don't want worse hands calling you here, because they have the chance to catch a card to beat you, and also have the opportunity to bluff and make you fold the best hand. This should be obvious that it's very bad.

I would call the flop and raise any non-ace turn. Most of the time he has air so you win it right there. If I turn an ace and he bets out, I don't raise because I don't want to scare him off. When he raises preflop and CBs the flop, then bets when an ace turns, he's telling you he's not scared of the ace - in fact he's telling you he has it (which may or may not be true). If you raise him, that says, "Well that's nice and all, but I don't really care." Just call his turn bet, because you don't want to scare off a weaker ace or a PP. If he bets the river, just call because he will rarely call a raise with a worse hand, as your river raises exposes the strength of your hand.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+2 started the hand with 800 and it appears to be 3rd hand of the sng. Tough to get reads in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, you're right. From the comments below I had gotten the impression that it was UTG that raises. I should have looked more carefully. Thanks.

By the way, sometimes two hands are all you need. Seriously. If in the first two hands you see someone raise twice and show down KTs one of those times, you've got a read on that guy. And if you think you don't see people like that at the 22s, you need to watch some of your hands in the replayer /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the flop and raise any non-ace turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're the only person I know that can not play poker and still be a LAG.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got AQs in position, I think calling preflop is totally fine

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you so far.

[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise this flop at all, because you will almost never get a better hand to fold, and you in fact don't get a lot of worse hands to fold either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure I'd go along with this. I think that there is all kinds of hands that he will fold to reraise. Particularly pocket pairs that didn't make a set, and all sorts of bizarre crap like K9s and Ax that pop up in $22 in the early stages.

[ QUOTE ]
It's important to realize that you don't want worse hands calling you here, because they have the chance to catch a card to beat you, and also have the opportunity to bluff and make you fold the best hand. This should be obvious that it's very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you again, with the exception that you do want weaker aces that will bet and call bets when an A falls. And yes, weaker aces do raise like that at the $22s. In addition, this comment seems to contradict what you say below, where you talk about the value of extracting chips from weaker aces.

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the flop and raise any non-ace turn. Most of the time he has air so you win it right there. If I turn an ace and he bets out, I don't raise because I don't want to scare him off. When he raises preflop and CBs the flop, then bets when an ace turns, he's telling you he's not scared of the ace - in fact he's telling you he has it (which may or may not be true). If you raise him, that says, "Well that's nice and all, but I don't really care." Just call his turn bet, because you don't want to scare off a weaker ace or a PP. If he bets the river, just call because he will rarely call a raise with a worse hand, as your river raises exposes the strength of your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I would never flat call the flop although I do agree with your logic the rest of the way given that you've called the flop. I think if you call the flop you are essentially calling for the value of later extracting chips from a weaker ace in the event that he has a weaker ace PLUS the value of shoving him off a bluff on the turn if he checks. That seems fine to me. Personally I would most often fold the flop without reads. If I felt that the opponent had a very loose preflop range I would raise because I find that many of the loose early stage players at the $22 will give up their aggression when they face meaningful resistance.

I think that I see how your line would turn a profit, but it isn't how I would react. I will need to reevaluate. Thanks for the well-thought out input.

[Karak567]

I am sure it has already been said, but it is worth repeating:

fold preflop