Should I start out playing limit, then move to PL?

Have played a ton of limit Holdem online and in B&M.
Also a very small amount of limit OmahaH/L in B&M casinos.

Want to play PL OmahaH/L online.

Should I play a few thousand hands of limit OmahaH/L first, or start right out in the very small buyin PL?

Will I learn bad habits and incorrect hand values playing Limit that will cost me money playing PL?

Thanks for your help.

[donger]

If anything, you will be playing too tight moving from LO8 to PLO8. Playing like a total rock is a good way to get your feet wet in PLO8 while turning a tidy profit.

[Wolffink]

Well, the obvious answer is to start out playing limit 08. Many of the same principles apply, and you're not facing tricky decisions for all your stack.

I've said a trained chimpanzee can play loose low limit 08 (or loose high limit LOL).

I don't think you will learn bad habits playing limit 08 first. For me, my style in pot limit is I tighten up on the flop a lot more facing strong betting. I get the nuts enough that I don't think I have to play non-nuts hand that might cost me my stack instead of double me up. In limit 08, the flop is a cheap betting round, so sure, why not take a card off and see if you have possibilities?

Pot limit is a lot more interesting if it's a good game (which many of the low pot limits are). I waited too long into venturing into pot limit 08. I was a bit concerned because I always played A-2 in limit 08 but in pot limit, it really isn't much of a hand. So then, what is, I wondered?

If you play the .01/.02 or .05/.10 pot limits and know what the nuts are, have read Ray Zee, and play solid hands, I am convinced you'd do fine also. If you've got a bankroll, even the worst case scenario is that you lose $10 and learn the underfull boat isn't so great. King high flushes suck facing a big re-raise. You'd probably have to learn this anyway at pot limit as in limit 08 they'd be value bets and then routine river call of a raise.

So my suggestion, is though it is best to start out in limit and plug any big leaks in your game, if you really want to play pot limit, it won't be a bad idea if you can start out at .01/.02 or .05/.10 --it's not like you're going to be facing Mark Gregorich there! And wait for the nuts and hope to double up with your hand.

And Pot Limit 08 is a blast! My experience is at the low pot limits is that people play looser preflop than they do at limit because of the implied odds. This goes into contrast to Ray Zee's advice to tighten up your hands. People call too much at low limits, but what makes pot limit 08 so great is that you will get the nuts and people will call you. I suspect people kid themselves that maybe you are going for low and trying to move them off their 2nd or 3rd or 4th best high. Right now Pot limit 08 is my most profitable game. Holdem is a war. I do okay, but like Mason Malmuth said about the difference in Stud & Holdem--in Holdem after you think things through you're still not sure what the best play is. I don't get the nuts often enough in Holdem, but in 08, I do.

So I urge you to play limit 08 first and then as soon as you feel comfortable, switch to the smallest pot limit 08 you can find and be prepared to have fun and be amazed!

There's two good websites that have articles on pot limit 08. Steve Badger's playwinningpoker and Gergery has a series of articles on both limit and pot limit that is quite good.

And remember the two big rules for pot limit--play to scoop and never draw to a hand that may be beaten. These are good rules for limit 08, but you can disregard them and it only costs you a bet or two. If you violate these rules in pot limit, sooner or later, you will be punished. Severely. I know sometimes I've violated these rules, thinking the person was trying to push me off the pot, but if they continue to fire, usually they have the honest-go-God nuts. So the saying "If you call on the Turn, you have to call on the river" --isn't necessarily a good maxim for Omaha.

[TGoldman]

If you're an experienced PLO high player, then I think you could jump into a PLO/8 game okay. For a Hold'em player, especially coming from limit Hold'em I'd recommend learning how to grind out a small profit at the low-limit O8 tables before you consider playing pot-limit O8. You'll need to get used to the split-pot nature of the game and start developing your hand reading skills. Any habits that you learn from limit O8 that may hurt your pot-limit game are able to be unlearned when you transition. For example, I think it's easier to learn to play very tight pre-flop from limit play and then loosen up as you switch to pot-limit. Also, once you go from limit to pot-limit, your experience from PLO/8 will improve your limit game a lot if you ever decide to play limit again.

Thank you very much for your advice.

I think I will start out playing limit to develop my hand reading skills and to get used to a split pot as you advised.

I played a little PL Omaha High on B2B earlier as there isn't much limit action of any kind in the off-peak hours. Was fun, but also kinda scary to a limit grinder like myself used to not playing for my whole stack.

edit: Just a side note, not planning on playing O8 on B2B, as the Europeans don't seem to like their split pot too much, just wanted to play there a bit to work on clearing my massive signup bonus.

[Big Dave D]

Why bother switching?

Limit hilo is a game that you can play profitably up to 75/150 and above.

PLO8b, well over 400 things are mighty slim on the ground. PLO8b was a dead game over a year ago...Party just shot some juice into the corpse, is all.

gl

dd

[Ribbo]

But since at $400 tables you can make an easy $1000 a day why would you complain about it? PLo8 is very much alive and well.
Yes start by playing limit before moving over, I did.

[Big Dave D]

You've made $300,000 this year? Hmmm.

Dave D

[Ribbo]

Jealous?

[ QUOTE ]
Jealous?

[/ QUOTE ]
If by "jealous" you mean "doubled over in laughter", then yes.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jealous?

[/ QUOTE ]
If by "jealous" you mean "doubled over in laughter", then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

PLO8b $400

2 tables 8hrs/day or 4 tables 4hrs/day
15BB/100
$960/day

20BB/100
$1,280/day

Very doable, this is PLO8b 15 to 20BB/100 very realistic. Watch him play, I have.

[Ribbo]

Just because you pissed away $10,000 in one day Wintermute, doesn't mean the rest of us do.

I was going to try to let this whole 10k business and all the other crap go, Ribbo. But since you mentioned it again, I'm inspired to put you in your place one last, definitive time.

Read this carefully, I want you to *really* think carefully about what I'm about to write. Every word of what I'm about to write is the absolute truth. Fact. So just let it sink in for a while before you reply. I'm tempted to start a new thread just to draw everyone attention to this, but I'll grant you some mercy and let it be buried here.

First, I have never posted at 2+2 about how I lost $10k in a day. Yet you seem to believe I have imposed this knowledge the 2+2 O8 forum. So get your facts straight--I mentioned the 10k matter in my blog only; a blog which, by the way, I have never so much as mentioned here (until now), let alone posted a link to. So anyone who reads that blog reads it *entirely* of their own volition. In another thread, you claimed nobody would care about the 10k thing (I see this post has been deleted BTW), which is surprising because you won't shut up about it yourself… now, perhaps you truly do not care about it as you claim, but I guarantee you that others get something out of reading about the swings of an online player. You might take a page out of my book and allow others to see that you, too, make mistakes & run bad on occasion, like the afternoon where you lost $5500 at the 1k/2k levels over the course of 200 hands, in your only ever attempt at actually playing those games instead of just ridiculing (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3539202&page=) the players. I guess others "piss away" thousands of dollars in one day also, don't they?

Anyhow, if you don’t enjoy reading my progress reports at the blog, feel free to remove my blog from your bookmarks.

As the coup de grace, let me point out one more poignant example of your selective memory, Ribbo. Take this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3918174&an=&page=1&v c=1) that you very recently started strictly to rail against a player who made an intelligent move at the pot from the button. You called him an idiot for that play just because your marginal play on the same hand proved to drag the pot. Well, it so happens that Ellicious is a friend of mine who is a strong player; he admits to the occasional mistake, as do I. But, also like me, he can't stand an arrogant prick who never admits wrongdoing, and brags without proof or reason. So he sent me the following hand history, from the SAME EXACT SESSION, which you clearly played like an utter fool and completely embarassed yourself:

***** Hand History for Game 3020108502 *****
$200 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Friday, November 11, 16:18:18 EDT 2005
Table 64697 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: CALHEAT ( $238.15 )
Seat 4: SOOASSASSIN ( $425.10 )
Seat 5: Ellicious ( $197.48 )
Seat 10: BorisBadnoff ( $196.80 )
Seat 1: Ribbo ( $579.06 )
Seat 2: NUTS1201 ( $486.60 )
Seat 7: kulingen ( $123.43 )
Seat 8: HavAnudaBeer ( $200 )
Seat 9: bozo ( $127.10 )
Seat 6: Starlight777 ( $198 )
CALHEAT posts small blind [$1].
SOOASSASSIN posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ellicious [ Kd Ad 3c 8h ]
Ellicious calls [$2].
Starlight777 folds.
kulingen calls [$2].
HavAnudaBeer calls [$2].
bozo folds.
BorisBadnoff folds.
Ribbo raises [$13].
NUTS1201 folds.
CALHEAT calls [$12].
SOOASSASSIN folds.
Ellicious calls [$11].
kulingen calls [$11].
HavAnudaBeer folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 8s, 8d ]
CALHEAT checks.
Ellicious checks.
kulingen bets [$25].
Ribbo calls [$25].
CALHEAT folds.
Ellicious raises [$153.20].
kulingen folds.
Ribbo raises [$256.40].
Ellicious is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Ribbo shows [ As, 6d, 2d, 6c ] two pairs, eights and sixes.
Ellicious shows [ Kd, Ad, 3c, 8h ] three of a kind, eights.
Ribbo wins $96.92 from side pot #1 with two pairs, eights and sixes.
Ellicious wins $446.96 from the main pot with three of a kind, eights.
There was no qualifying low hand.


I like how you shove all-in on the flop with nothing but a low draw when you’re faced with a bettor in front and a big raiser behind. I assume you’ll be leaving this shining example of stupidity off your instructional PLO8 website?

Now, I'm not going to claim that I never draw at a low even though I know better. I make mistakes from time to time, just like everyone. That's how 10k gets lost in a session. But then again, I don't go around claiming to be the "best thing that has happened to the 2+2 PLO8 forum in a long time" (QUOTE from your blog), and making outrageous claims about my winnings. I simply state facts.

I'm now done with this discussion, or argument, or whatever you want to call it. And I'm done with you, Ribbo.

[Big Dave D]

Lee,

Wintermute has said most of what is relevant here. But a couple more things.

I have known Ribbo online since the 90s. Until very recently, when he won some money playing online slots, I doubt he played much 400 at all. He has been mostly a 200 player and before that, micro limits. When all the big plo8b action was on Stars, I never saw him in those games even once.

As to those Stats, if you mean PT BB then I think you are insane. I don't know of any player who is winning nearly a dollar a hand at the 400 level. At least over a long time. If you mean normal BB, then sure...but that is at the high boundary edge.

gl

dd

[Big Dave D]

Losing 10k in a day is no biggie at the stacks you play anyway and is purely an expected variance. I've lost more than that in an hour.

gl

dd

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Lee,

Wintermute has said most of what is relevant here. But a couple more things.

I have known Ribbo online since the 90s. Until very recently, when he won some money playing online slots, I doubt he played much 400 at all. He has been mostly a 200 player and before that, micro limits. When all the big plo8b action was on Stars, I never saw him in those games even once.

As to those Stats, if you mean PT BB then I think you are insane. I don't know of any player who is winning nearly a dollar a hand at the 400 level. At least over a long time. If you mean normal BB, then sure...but that is at the high boundary edge.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I suggest you need to redefine your definition of "knowing me". You might want to start by actually looking at some of the games I play in http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?page=list&user=Ribs

[Big Dave D]

Doesnt this prove my point? You play almost no hands in the 2-4 range until May, when you luckbucket some wins in Video Poker. I dont consider 100 or 200 buyin games to be anything other than lowlimit. There's no shame in this, but let's not pretend its anything other than it is.

gl

dd

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesnt this prove my point? You play almost no hands in the 2-4 range until May, when you luckbucket some wins in Video Poker. I dont consider 100 or 200 buyin games to be anything other than lowlimit. There's no shame in this, but let's not pretend its anything other than it is.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong as always Dave, nice try though. All your post has proven is your ignorance, which is nothing to be ashamed of, considering how much a [censored] retard you are.
Your whole reasoning behind something not being possible is because you can't do it, ergo no-one else can. It has a somewhat large flaw in it, namely other people such as myself are just better at PLO8 than you.
I'm not interested in a dick waving contest with you, because you don't have one to wave. Rather than try to knock other people accomplishments in some strange way of trying to justify your own pathetic achievements (blowing off a good chunk of your bankroll, way to go with that!), how about you just accept that when someone says $1000 a day is easily managable if you're prepared to put the hours in. I play 6 tables at a time, and I specifically look for bad opponents. Anyone who thinks a "better player" always plays $400 over $200, or $1000 over $400 is a fool. I've been in $200 games that have bigger pot averages than $1000 tables.
I'm sure you feel all proud having pissed away all that money you did because you did it playing "high limit tables" and hey you must be a better playing losing at high limits than me for winning at "low limits", but you epitomise everything that is wrong with dick waving poker players. Winning at poker is about being able to adapt, whether it be to the opponents in the game or to the games themselves. I don't believe every game on the internet is beatable, but I sure know there are enough that are, and I will happily move until I find them. You however seem so set on proving your manhood by not demeaning yourself by playing a lower limit no matter how juicy it is.
If I see a huge retarded calling station in a $100 game then I will get myself in it, because $100 of free money is preferred to a grind on $400 tables.

[Big Dave D]

This powerful reasoned approach certainly brings back the memories of our RGP days. Remember those days, when you said you didn't play for the money?

Anyway, I must follow Wintermute's example. You win. You have done more than enough to persuade the impartial observer. I'm done.

Dave

[niwotyalpi]

Hehe. I will give this thread a bump just b/c I'm enjoying the developing saga between a couple of O/8 big dawgs.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesnt this prove my point? You play almost no hands in the 2-4 range until May, when you luckbucket some wins in Video Poker. I dont consider 100 or 200 buyin games to be anything other than lowlimit. There's no shame in this, but let's not pretend its anything other than it is.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong as always Dave, nice try though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity, why do you berate the fish (and others) at the tables while playing?

-g

[daisyglaze]

Says something about the relevance of plo8.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesnt this prove my point? You play almost no hands in the 2-4 range until May, when you luckbucket some wins in Video Poker. I dont consider 100 or 200 buyin games to be anything other than lowlimit. There's no shame in this, but let's not pretend its anything other than it is.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong as always Dave, nice try though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity, why do you berate the fish (and others) at the tables while playing?

-g

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mendacious]

Funny Wintermute, you had no trouble pulling stuff off of my blog-- which you apparently read even though I small[er] limits player and even though like you, I have not advertised it on this site-- to ridicule me. So, this seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Let me say, I enjoy reading both of your blogs and writings and I think you have both improved my play in certain respects. IMHO, you both know a lot about the game and both are entertaining writers.

That being said, the need to ridicule other people is a flaw which both of you share equally, and which detracts from your value as posters. All it really says is that you are both insecure. I give you credit however for at least being open and honest about your own play, warts and all. Your postings have helped me be more meticulously honest with myself about my own play-- which I think is very important.

Ribbo on the other hand, is less forthcoming with his results. Although he pooh poohs Pokertracker, I think not using it causes him to inflate his results in his own mind.

After many session with Ribbo, these are my stats on him, and how we match up.

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/956096/0/nouser_956/T0_-1_956096.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=956096)

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/956103/0/nouser_956/T0_-1_956103.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=956103)

I think Ribbo is a dynamic and profitable player, but think his claim to make $1000 a day is fanciful. I am SURE he is a more profitable player than I am. However, his cock-sure attitude makes him a player that I love to have at my table. He increases the action at most tables, and I have found that though he applies a lot of pressure and is capable of great laydowns, it is not that hard to get him heads-up for the pot with the best of it, especially if you observe him and read his stuff.

I close with this very typical flush draw raise by Ribbo, where is is a huge dog...


***** Hand History for Game *****
$200 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Thursday, November 17, Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Holyman_10 ( $582.54 )
Seat 3: patsa ( $108.93 )
Seat 4: LATERONDUDE ( $184.02 )
Seat 6: Ribbo ( $323.43 )
Seat 10: NUTS1201 ( $198.26 )
Seat 8: HERO ( $204.80 )
Seat 5: Intuition1 ( $39.18 )
Seat 7: GAMBIT314 ( $196.15 )
Seat 9: softhds1 ( $261.61 )
Seat 2: eddydragon ( $198.50 )
NUTS1201 posts small blind [$1].
Holyman_10 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
eddydragon folds.
patsa folds.
LATERONDUDE folds.
Intuition1 folds.
Ribbo calls [$2].
GAMBIT314 folds.
HERO raises [$9].
softhds1 folds.
NUTS1201 folds.
Holyman_10 folds.
Ribbo calls [$7].
** Dealing Flop ** [ T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Ribbo checks.
HERO bets [$19.95].
Ribbo raises [$79.80].
HERO is all-In.
Ribbo calls [$116].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Ribbo shows [ 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] a pair of aces.
Ribbo shows 8,7,6,4,A for low.
HERO shows [ A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] three of a kind, aces.
HERO shows 8,7,3,2,A for low.
HERO wins $204.80 from the main pot with three of a kind, aces.
HERO wins Lo ($204.80) from the main pot with 8,7,3,2,A.

[Big Dave D]

Mend,

The difference is, Winter believes he is being funny, although he does sometimes miss that he *could* also be p.is.sing people off.

That is rarely the reason Ribbo does it.

gl

dd

[Cooker]

I was thinking the same thing, but I will add that I think Ribbo's delivery is somewhat useful, because there is way too much weak tight advice floating around. The problem with that advice is that it often sounds right to those that don't know better (I am often in this camp), but it will keep you from reaching optimal play. I think a strong counter point to that type of advice is reasonable, although a little humility wouldn't hurt Ribbo at all. I like that Winter will admit to making occasional mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
Funny Wintermute, you had no trouble pulling stuff off of my blog-- which you apparently read even though I small[er] limits player and even though like you, I have not advertised it on this site-- to ridicule me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're talking about this comment from the Barry G hand thread:

"I gauge the way you play based on the relatively tight stats you've posted as well as your intention to play a reduced-variance style by passing up +EV drawing situations on the flop at the $200 level, mentioned in your blog. I cannot see a player with that description having a full experiential understanding of the value of advertising as we are discussing here."

My point in that comment surely could not be mistaken as ridicule; rather, I was trying to explain why I thought you might not be seeing things the way I saw them in terms of LAG play advertising... I didn't mean for it to come off as a slam, simply a truthful explanation. I also attributed the comment to your blog, as you see, so as not to misrepresent what I was saying as something you had posted to the forum.

Also, I'm not sure why you would think I wouldn't read your blog simply because you play lower limits... Virtually everyone here plays low-mid limits, and I still post; in many ways, thinking about those games and hearing about others' experiences in them is just as useful as thinking/discussing bigger games.

Finally, as Big Dave D also mentioned, instances where I truly do ridicule someone are virtually always meant to be funny; I'm sure feelings occasionally get hurt, but that's just the nature of ball breaking. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an out-of-the-blue "you just suck" comment intended literally from me to another.

[Mendacious]

My skin isn't so thin. I actually enjoy your antics-- as well as Ribbo's. Its the air of superiority that I can do without at times. And I am flattered that anyone would read my blog, especially since it is pretty much zero content at the moment.

[Big Dave D]

Cooker,

Nearly all the plo8b advice posted here, until recently, was flat out wrong. I was once involved in a huge thread as to why a naked A2 was a preflop fold regardless of action. The breadth of accurate PLo8b play is actually quite narrow, say compared to PLO. Ribbo isnt the most aggressive exponent of "right" play, and he certainly is mostly right about the games he mostly plays, but its not rocket science either.

gl

dd

[scdavis0]

I looked at a lot of your hands Ribbo. Is that you saying "ty" when you scoop a pot on people? That's total class.

Do you say that when you play live too?

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Cooker,

Nearly all the plo8b advice posted here, until recently, was flat out wrong. I was once involved in a huge thread as to why a naked A2 was a preflop fold regardless of action. The breadth of accurate PLo8b play is actually quite narrow, say compared to PLO. Ribbo isnt the most aggressive exponent of "right" play, and he certainly is mostly right about the games he mostly plays, but its not rocket science either.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

Make a new thread people.

Also didnt Ribbo used to say that he only played 100 PLO8? this was like 1 month ago. What happened to that?