God & abortion.

As I was answering another post on the Politics forum, I started thinking about abortion and realise that part of my reply would be more appropriately posted here. So here it goes:

Once more,as I thought about it, like so many moral related issues, I came across a seeming morass of contradictions for those theists that oppose it. I will say that I am unconditionally pro, pro-choice that is. I value this ability we have to make moral judgements and the meaning it may imbue our life with.

Some of the conundrums, as I see them, are:

If abortion is against the will of god, which is debated and debatable amongst various theists believers even, what is a miscarriage? Is it a god induced abortion? Or shall we call it an act of nature to ensure the continuation of our pristine view of god.

What is the status of the miscarried foetus with respect to salvation. Is it destined for limbo or something else, maybe worse? It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time (see the last statement in this post).

Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? For the woman? For the foetus?

What is the explanation for miscarriage by intelligent design supporters?

For the purpose of this discussion I am prepared to err on the side of conservatism and say that both abortion and miscarriage happen before quickening, for all intents and purposes well before consciousness, at the very fist sign of movement in the womb. Movement happens well before there is the necessary neuronal system to provide consciousness, let alone moral judgement. Lets not forget that the foetus to mother physiological relationship is parasitic by any standard.


Looking forward to some intelligent answers to my genuine questions.

[RJT]

MG,

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Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?

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Not quite sure what you are asking. Is there a difference between someone dying from being murdered by someone and dying a natural death?

RJT

[vulturesrow]

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If abortion is against the will of god, which is debated and debatable amongst various theists believers even, what is a miscarriage? Is it a god induced abortion? Or shall we call it an act of nature to ensure the continuation of our pristine view of god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a natural death. Your contradiction in this case is basically a non-sequitir.

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What is the status of the miscarried foetus with respect to salvation. Is it destined for limbo or something else, maybe worse? It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time (see the last statement in this post).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am unsure of the Church's position on this, but based on my general knowledge, I would say the soul is bound for Heaven.

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Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? For the woman? For the foetus?


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Difference how? Morally, physically, emotionally?

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What is the explanation for miscarriage by intelligent design supporters?


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I dont know, and not to be snide, but I dont particularly care enough to find out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Peter666]

The Church's position on the fetus or any human that has not reached the age of reason is that it is bound for limbo unless it has been Baptized by Water or has suffered martyrdom (like the babies who were murdered by Herod) in which case the soul is bound for Heaven. Without reason present there is no possibility for Baptism of Desire.

And if BluffTHIS or somebody will post what is said in the "New Catechism of the Catholic Church" circa JPII and friends, I will prove that it is heresy.

[vulturesrow]

Actually, you would be the heretic if you reject the teachings of the Church vis a vis the Catechism.

[Peter666]

Bring it on. I will prove it vis a vis dogma.

[Jeff V]

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It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time

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Where do you come up with this??

That's just plain not true.

[vulturesrow]

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Bring it on. I will prove it vis a vis dogma.

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What is there to "bring on"? If you reject the official teachings of the Church, than by definition you are the heretic.

[hmkpoker]

They taught us in Catholic school that there is no limbo and that the babies go to Heaven. Can't give you a reference though, I wasn't paying attention at the time /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
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It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you come up with this??

That's just plain not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm as staunchly pro-choice as you can get, but if you can direct me to any unequivocal peer-reviewed evidence of pre-natal self-awareness, I'll switch positions in a heartbeat.

[Peter666]

But I do not reject the dogmatic teachings of the Church. I am saying that the New Catechism contains heresy.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
MG,

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a difference between an abortion and a miscarriage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite sure what you are asking. Is there a difference between someone dying from being murdered by someone and dying a natural death?

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
Death that happens naturally (i.e., without "being murdered") isn't unbothersome in other situations. When a teen dies of leukemia, it's horrific, and we're doing tons of research to try to prevent such things.

How much are we spending on research to prevent the deaths of zygotes by spontaneous abortion? I'd suggest that if people really valued a zygote as much as they valued a teenager, spending on preventing early miscarriages would dwarf spending on preventing/curing leukemia since they are so much more common. (Fifty to sixty percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, often before the woman realizes she is pregnant.)

But that's not happening. Why not?

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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It has no consciuosness, no mental abilities at that time

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you come up with this??

That's just plain not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm as staunchly pro-choice as you can get, but if you can direct me to any unequivocal peer-reviewed evidence of pre-natal self-awareness, I'll switch positions in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no EEG reading, meaning no brain activity (and hence no conscious awareness), until about the 24th week after conception.

[Jeff V]

To say a fetus has no mental abilities without specifying age shows no mental abilities on the part of the OP.

[Jeff V]

here you go

early parenting (http://www.educarer.com/guestcolumn.htm)

fetal awareness (http://apt.allenpress.com/aptonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=1097-8003&volume=015&issue=02&page=0118)

[Jeff V]

prenatal influences (http://www.earthtym.net/ref-prenatal.htm)

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To say a fetus has no mental abilities without specifying age shows no mental abilities on the part of the OP.

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Indeed /images/graemlins/smile.gif It seems that your reading abilities are somewhat lacking too. Nevermind, it probably your haste and enthusiam to respond that makes you so prejudiced.

[ QUOTE ]
here you go

early parenting (http://www.educarer.com/guestcolumn.htm)



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...the majority opinion is that parenthood starts after birth. This view has been fostered by medical scientists.. (from the reference)

Yes, damned scientists, lets get back to the dark ages instead.


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fetal awareness (http://apt.allenpress.com/aptonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=1097-8003&volume=015&issue=02&page=0118)

[/ QUOTE ]


...12 pairs of mothers (ages 44 to 85) and their offspring (ages 9 to 61) were hypnotically age regressed to the time of the pregnancy...

Well what can I say? Did they regress via hypnosis to past lifes as well?

[ QUOTE ]
prenatal influences (http://www.earthtym.net/ref-prenatal.htm)

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Umm any book title that starts with "The secrets of..." sounds like airport bookshop scam materials. lol


No, please, no more of this. It takes too much time.

[Jeff V]

Lol. I appologize for evey post made in my name in this thread.

[Lestat]

Why can't the words bludgeon and heart attack be substituted with abortion and miscarriage?

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Why can't the words bludgeon and heart attack be substituted with abortion and miscarriage?

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Uhh! Well because it has no relation to this thread!?

But I will give you the courtesy of a thoughful answer to the point you are raising anyway. I see no problems at all with this. In one case the agent of murder is a human being (capable of morality, imo) in the other it is a design of god (seemingly less capable, if at all, of morality, again, imo).

I am assuming that the suffering is identical in both case, at least, for the purpose of the point you are trying to make.

[Lestat]

Personally, I'm pro-choice and believe there is a point before which a fetus can be considered (or valued) the same as a human life.

However, your question was posed to theists. If I understand the theistic view correctly, It is through the grace of God that life begins and through His grace that life ends. If this is your view it is understandable (to me), how you would view any attempt at aborting a life as a sin against God.

Are you aware that many Christians are against birth control? I'm talking contraceptives! if you feel ANY attempt to stop life is a sin against God (even if life has not yet been conceived!), then surely aborting a life even before moral development would be considered a sin.

Lestat.

I think we are at cross-purposes here. If you read my posts you will see that I am very much pro-choice and not at all a theist of any kind.

I am not sure how I gave that impression.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS I am saying that god is immoral!

[Lestat]

I think you ask good questions. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate from the other side. If God is the creator of life, then only God can take away that life regardless of what stage of development that life is in. So this seems a very simple question for theists. ALL abortion of anything which could even become human life is wrong!

However, the question of yours which I would like to see debated amongst theists is the "soul" of a fetus. When does a soul come into existence? Are souls predestined? Did the souls of my kids exist before they were born and I was only 10 years old?

Of course, a soul doesn't need a body so the insufficient neurological (or any physical), development of a fetus is not a factor for the theist. But that begs the question: What IS a soul? What IS a mind?

The mind itself cannot exist without the many physical attributes from the body. But presumably a soul can exist without any physical assistance from the brain. But without a brain, what's left? There are no senses, no thoughts, etc. I might make a new post about this.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
The Church's position on the fetus or any human that has not reached the age of reason is that it is bound for limbo unless it has been Baptized by Water or has suffered martyrdom (like the babies who were murdered by Herod) in which case the soul is bound for Heaven. Without reason present there is no possibility for Baptism of Desire.

And if BluffTHIS or somebody will post what is said in the "New Catechism of the Catholic Church" circa JPII and friends, I will prove that it is heresy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter,

I am not quite sure what part of CCC you are referring. A link to it for you convenience:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

RJT