AQs. NASTY HAND. PARTY 1/2.

[flawless_victory]

ok.
havent been playing this game too much lately.
just sat a few rounds ago and have only showed down solid hands, so i have should have a good and TAG image.

an EMP opens... he plays ok and is prob a small winner in this game... def a selftaught old school type... he coldcalls alot and plays more passive postflop than a 2P2, but he can mix it up and has an decent understanding of holdem it seems.
i threebet on the button w/ A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif... loose and semiaggro fishy guy calls in the SB and the EMP call... so 3way.

flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
checkcheck to me and i bet.

i check here sometimes and i almost checked this one through, but EMP is v capable of making a quick exit if he doesnt have a big hand and SB could have something like JT here, so i felt like i needed to give myself a chance to win the pot now.
well, sb checkraises and EMP calls 2.
yay. i call also.
i have 2 BDs and an over, but i feel like im drawing dead here... does this call suck?

turn comes 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
checkcheck to me again, i check.
hmmm.

river comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets, EMP folds, and now im getting 10:1ish to call w/ nut nada. clubs missed, so i go ahead and call.


this cant be right.
i think all postflop streets merit discussion (although 4th may be clear).

I dont like the flop play. Edit: I like the bet.

I think that when it is c'rd and EMP calls two, you need to let AQ go. On the turn, a check is clearly the only play you can make.

On the river, I'd give EMP credit for a missed hand like the nut flush, and I think that the fish in this hand is capable of making this c'r with an OESD. I'd just be glad you got to see the river for free and fold here. I dont like calling down with nut no pair in this spot....but, since it's me, I probably would anyways, just because, and then wish I hadn't.


Fold this flop.

Check this turn.

Fold river.

IMO.


Tex

[elindauer]

It would be very odd for the SB to check a made hand on this board as he has no reason to think anyone will bet for him and the board is full of draws. There's plenty of doubt, so the river call looks good.

The flop... well, you know. Good luck with that.

-Eric

[tongni]

Fold the flop. On the river, PFR realizes that his ace high club draw is no good. You should too.

[Jeffage]

This is just some discussion fodder here but...

Is SB the type who would valuebet something like 55 or a 7 on the river here? I doubt he has a king since he probably checkraises the flop with it. Would he potentially fold a weak two pair hand to a river raise figuring you're raising something like JJ or QQ for value? I'm not saying I would definitely raise here, but I might if I thought my opponent was capable of folding a hand better than mine.

Also curious what you would have done if EMP had bet the river instead of SB. And would anyone have bet the turn here to avoid the river ambiguity? I'd probably check but I'm not 100% sure it's correct THIS hand with THIS board.

Jeff

[DonCaspero]

I don't think a turn bet is that bad. When EMP checks again on the turn after coldcalling two on the flop, it looks very much like some kind of draw. When SB check it could be because he too has a draw, or maybe more likely a weak made hand that was hoping to win it right there or at least get it heads up with you. The EMP coldcall scares him, so he checks. You're paying off a blank river anyway, so might as well charge the potential draws and earn an extra bet if you hit an ace on the river. If you're raised you have an easy fold.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
well, sb checkraises and EMP calls 2.


[/ QUOTE ]
That would be enough for me to say 'bye bye' to my AQ on the flop...

Hitting the Q (or Ace) might well not be enough to win. You may also be reverse dominated (with any of the 6 outs) which makes it worse, and flush draws can redraw out against you even if you hit the Queen/Ace on the turn. If the turn is A /images/graemlins/club.gif or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif it's possibly worse. Your runner runner outs are not worth much and despite the pot being 15 SB I think you're drawing pretty thin.

[bugstud]

problem is that at 15-1 his backdoor broadway and nut flush alone are almost enough to call, so if the ace is ever clean it's a clear call. imo that means that he must call here when it comes back to him on the flop.

[1800GAMBLER]

There's never been a hand in which i could do this but this seems like one. It seems like EP has Asxs a very large percentage of the time, well, if not all the time. So that hugely discounts SB from having it.

That, in addition to, i think his most likely hand is KQ KJ that got a little scared by the coldcall, and silly tricky sets and TT JJ, so it's a pretty wide range of legit hands but with some discounting.

At first i thought it was very close, not i think it's just a fold.

Everything else i play the same.

[DeeJ]

true, but the ace could be reverse dominated (I think this is not unlikely), you may well need to put in a bet to chase at the turn, you can get your Ace - or straight - and still lose to a flush, and you can get your flush but still lose to a boat if the board pairs the river. I think it's pretty close nonetheless.

The trouble with judgement calls like this is that your EV (if it is positive) is pretty tiny, you lose 90%+ of the time, & the variance is massive. Which means you can pretty easily go 40,50 or more times in these scenarios and lose every one /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Beautiful mythical Sklansky dollars.

[Rootabager]

Flop calls is ok.
I probaly fold to river bet. He could easily have k10-KQ and be scared when MP called 2 cold.

[flawless_victory]

SB showed 66 for bottom full.
i felt pretty stupid after this one.

[imashyboi]

Pre-Flop - Standard

Flop - Fold. I think I'm going to let this hand go after seeing EMP cold call 2 bets. I can easily give him credit for a K(KQ,KJ,KT) beacuse of his position. The flush draw is definitely on the side of my eye view too. AhQh just doesn't look all that good after seeing someone cold call even though you have a 2 backdoor draws. IF YOU OPT TO CALL, FOLD THE TURN UNIMPROVE. If you hit the A on the turn remember that you have to put in another 2BB to see if you're hand is good.

Turn - Standard

River - Fold. I don't see any reason why SB will bluff here being that he has to commit a big bet with two players acting after him. Personally, I'm folding but if you think he could be bluffing or value betting with a weak pair the better play would be to raise and force him to a corner.

[MNpoker]

The bet on the flop I'm indifferent to: Sometimes I'll check that situation and sometimes I'll bet it.

But I think you have to fold to the raise on the flop. (90%+ of the time)

Turn - Check (Or go for the steal now if you are going to call a river bet)

River - Try not to get yourself in these situations /images/graemlins/cool.gif . I think it's time to fold but it's close.
The reason I fold the river is I think there is a good chance the other villian was on a flush draw (what else did he cold call 2 bets with then fold?) This reduces the chances SB was on a flush draw as well.

-- Unrelated note: SB played this horribly.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
-- Unrelated note: SB played this horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]
where is capt obvious?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
semiaggro fishy guy calls in the SB

[/ QUOTE ]

call river

Barron

[J.A.Sucker]

Put your opponents on likely hands here on the flop. Does the checkraiser do this with a draw? What about the guy in the middle? Then think about what they do on the turn. Will they apply more pressure or play like a panzy? Folding is out of the question in this pot - it's huge.

You absolutely have to bet this flop. You reraised preflop, a K flops. AK is a likely hand for you, right? Bet the damned thing. If you are scared to bet here, don't three bet the AQs preflop.

Now here's the interesting thing that I would consider that nobody else has: Three bet the flop. This board is draw heavy, and you have position. People like to semibluff out of position with draws, to no end. The guy in the middle either has an absolute monster or a draw. I think he has the latter. Now, what about the guy in the front? Might as well find out, since you've made the pot huge. Pop it and take the free card, unless you spike an A on the turn. You may actually fold out the guy in front and be able to bet the turn headsup. Think about this for a second.

Good check on the turn. I'm glad that your opponents are terrible.

The river card actually kind of sucks for you. You must call, but I think you lost to 89. The question is does raising buy you the pot here? Doubt it. Call and hope your hand is good. You can't fold this river.

[MNpoker]

http://www.bluelinecomics.com/pictures/Capt%20Obvious%20banner%20smaller.jpg

[Lestat]

This hand is an example of a good player and good thinker getting bogged down by indecisiveness.

There is no place for indecision in poker. If you think you have but 3 outs, then fold. If you think you have the best hand which requires charging an inferior one, Or... that he's betting some measely hand that he doesn't really want to call two more bets with, then raise. If you think he might have you beat, but will also continue betting a bust then call with the intention of calling again on the river.

Just don't call because you can't decide what else to do.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-- Unrelated note: SB played this horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]
where is capt obvious?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SB played this pretty well actually, he just got unlucky that hero had 1 of the only hands (maybe THE only hand?) he would 3-bet preflop but wouldn't bet the turn with...

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
You absolutely have to bet this flop. You reraised preflop, a K flops. AK is a likely hand for you, right? Bet the damned thing. If you are scared to bet here, don't three bet the AQs preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmm. scared to bet? why would i be scared, this is limit poker...
this is one of the worst flops for my hand and im just trying to make good decisions as opposed to bad ones.

not sure if youve played this game, but it is usually quite tight preflop, so these guys usually have good starting hands, and AK is a likely hand for a sb that called 3.

[ QUOTE ]
Now here's the interesting thing that I would consider that nobody else has: Three bet the flop. This board is draw heavy, and you have position. People like to semibluff out of position with draws, to no end. The guy in the middle either has an absolute monster or a draw. I think he has the latter. Now, what about the guy in the front? Might as well find out, since you've made the pot huge. Pop it and take the free card, unless you spike an A on the turn. You may actually fold out the guy in front and be able to bet the turn headsup. Think about this for a second.

[/ QUOTE ]
not sure why id want to do this, raising the turn is the only way i could get this guy off a pair, and even then, ppl dont fold in big pots... especially online.


[ QUOTE ]
The river card actually kind of sucks for you. You must call, but I think you lost to 89. The question is does raising buy you the pot here? Doubt it. Call and hope your hand is good. You can't fold this river.

[/ QUOTE ]
well, i was worried that he did have 89 (although this would be insanely loose preflop play), but i figured there wasnt much chance he would fold this to a river raise anyway, so i called thinking he might have a JcTc hand, or maybe some ridiculous flop bluff w/ no hand, that hed given up on when both of us called.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]


There is no place for indecision in poker. If you think you have but 3 outs, then fold. If you think you have the best hand which requires charging an inferior one, Or... that he's betting some measely hand that he doesn't really want to call two more bets with, then raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm.
on the flop, i felt id be lucky to have three outs. i did not think i had the sb beat. i called one bet cause i was getting 15:1 w/ position and had 2 backdoor draws to the nuts. i thought that i needed to peel there, plus its better for my image.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm. scared to bet? why would i be scared, this is limit poker...
this is one of the worst flops for my hand and im just trying to make good decisions as opposed to bad ones.

not sure if youve played this game, but it is usually quite tight preflop, so these guys usually have good starting hands, and AK is a likely hand for a sb that called 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are thinking about checking this flop through, it sounds like you are scared to bet. This is an automatic bet. This may be a terrible flop for your hand, but it doesn't matter. What does matter, is that your opponents don't know what you have, and most of your hands will LOVE this flop. That's why you can get them to lay hands down. Think about it this way, if you are up front and have TT, how are you going to feel about taking one off, realizing that you may get jammed by the guy in the middle and the button behind you? High limit poker isn't about your cards - your opponents are thinking about your cards, too. It's about thinking about what they are thinking about and reacting to it. That's why betting is automatic, and 3 betting is something to consider.

I have (and do) play this game, though I prefer to play shorthanded games online at this level. Of course AK is a possible hand for SB, but so is a pair. You might as well find out, and maybe fold the best hand in the process. When you 3 bet preflop, you decided to play a big pot (correctly I might add, since you have the best position and a great hand). Follow through on your plan.

[ QUOTE ]
not sure why id want to do this, raising the turn is the only way i could get this guy off a pair, and even then, ppl dont fold in big pots... especially online.

[/ QUOTE ]

My flop 3 bet isn't an absolute. It's something to think about. As I said before, suppose you are in the SB with TT. You decide to make a move on the flop bet, and then you get a caller and a 3 bet. Yuck. Of course, you may have to bet the turn again, but this is an option, too. If you can get it headsup with the guy in the middle, that sounds good to me. This line does this, while charging the draw the most.

My river action is something to think about, once again. I don't think it's right, nor something that you should do every time, but I don't think it should be neglected, since it can be VERY right, if the right spots are chosen.

High limit isn't about playing by rote. It's about playing situations and thinking outside the box. That's the main point of my thoughts in this thread. This works online, live, or on Mars. Believe me.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
High limit isn't about playing by rote. It's about playing situations and thinking outside the box. That's the main point of my thoughts in this thread. This works online, live, or on Mars. Believe me.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok, good post dude.

im just gonna say that youve prob made some incorrect assumptions about the way i play...
not trying to be argumentative or anything, i sincerely enjoyed both your posts in this thread, but dont assume im some st8forward 2P2 TAG type player... if anything, i have this sick tendency to go way too far on read based stuff...

i called a guy a 3/4pot on river bet w/9 high (he had a flush) a couple days ago playing HUNLHE, ahaha. i should post that hand. he apparently looked at the hand history and was totally confused... i got him allin w/ 2outs/1to come, two hands later.

[Lestat]

Is there a way to set up my computer to show me just one sentence at a time so I don't rush through a post and botch another response?

I thought your opponent BET the turn and then realized too late that you both had checked it.

I think your bet on the flop is fine for the reasons you mentioned. When check/raised, you can't like it, but your two backdoors should be enough to peel.

I'll usually only check the turn here if I'm comfortable with how to react to a river bet (call or fold). Otherwise, I'd rather bet the turn myself. I think you played fine. But I don't think folding the river is terrible either as it's very player dependent.

Sorry for botching my first response. -gl

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't take your stuff to be argumentative. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm just trying to point out some things to you and hopefully to others that one needs to think about in order to beat the big games. I'm trying to make my strategy posts genearlly applicable these days, and this was an interesting situation and a great hand to illustrate several things to think about during a hand. Whether or not you actually do certain things is immaterial - it's all part of a larger thought process. All too often this forum has been "well my opponnet is a 17/2/323423423 and I have AK, what do I do?" This type of thinking has degraded the forums, IMO. This is also why several players can't beat the big games, even though they get the money in the 15/30 & 30/60 games. Good post, flawless. Awhile ago I made a post about how one shouldn't worry about bets in big pots - they should worry about pots in big pots. This is the case often in a spot like this.

[tongni]

[ QUOTE ]
Now here's the interesting thing that I would consider that nobody else has: Three bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason why no one else has considered it. Putting your opponents on nothing and nothing after a checkraise and cold call is a little wishful thinking. A monster or draw? How about AK? QQ if he shares the same read? Also no one will ever fold on this flop to a 3bet, because they are always getting odds even with a pocket pair.

[mterry]

Bummer. I don't think you played it poorly, but I may have cold-called AQs. After this hand I'd be taking notes on this villain. I feel his turn attempt at c/r is pretty bad and fps.

I assume nobody here likes villain's c/r with a set on the turn against Hero's range?