A5h UTG [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Chaos_ult

11-17-2005, 03:26 AM

This one's ugly

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB raises, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Could I have folded the river?

Should I have raised somewhere?

Help me!

Thanks in advance

flair1239

11-17-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This one's ugly

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB raises, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Could I have folded the river?

Should I have raised somewhere?

Help me!

Thanks in advance

[/ QUOTE ]

Chaos,

In 6-max, if you are going to play this hand... you need to raise with it.

As the hand played out I think I would be raising the turn to try to knock out any junk 5 outers. If the BB reraised, with him being an unkown, I would be tempted to fold... except the pot would be right on the edge of a tempting call down. For me it would depend on the BB. I am leaning toward folding to a turn reraise though.

Nick C

11-17-2005, 03:39 AM

I would raise the flop, probably, hoping that BB had JJ, that no one behind me had an ace, and that I could put pressure on hands like KTo and QT.

After that didn't work, I'd be looking to catch a 5 or at least a heart on the turn. But I'd most likely bet the turn, if no one played back at me on the flop.

If someone 3-bet me on the flop or woke up with a raise on the turn, I probably wouldn't make it to the river unless I had aces over fives or a flush draw on the turn. (If a 2, 3, or 4 fell on the turn, I'd also be hard to get rid of.)

Anyway, hands like this one are a part of the reason why I stopped playing low suited aces in EP.

Chaos_ult

11-17-2005, 03:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In 6-max, if you are going to play this hand... you need to raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as well, but with the table being so loose passive (lots of cold calling happening), I thought a call was better. Is this too weak (even with the table being so loose passive)?

flair1239

11-17-2005, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In 6-max, if you are going to play this hand... you need to raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as well, but with the table being so loose passive (lots of cold calling happening), I thought a call was better. Is this too weak (even with the table being so loose passive)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just gave you the default.

If you had a specific reason (for instance you knew you were likely to see the family pot you did), then this is A-OK PF.

In general terms though in a shorthanded situation (be it 6-max or first in MP2 in full ring) the suited aspect of your hand carries less value.. because you are less likely to see a multi-way pot.

But with your PF read.. I find your reasoning PF hard to criticise.

Post-flop though, I think at some point you need to think about putting pressure on a KX type hand that has 5-outs on you. That field behind you could have anywhere from 5-10 outs between them... you want to cut that down.

Chaos_ult

11-17-2005, 03:51 AM

Thank you for your informative responses

Redd

11-17-2005, 11:01 AM

I'm with Nick here - why don't you like just raising the flop, flair?

krimson

11-17-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In 6-max, if you are going to play this hand... you need to raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as well, but with the table being so loose passive (lots of cold calling happening), I thought a call was better. Is this too weak (even with the table being so loose passive)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I just gave you the default.

[/ QUOTE ]
Default would be to fold A5s UTG. I think raising is the worst option here. If the table is extremely loose passive, then a limp is maybe slightly marginal.

thejameser

11-17-2005, 11:15 AM

raise pf. raise flop to try to get it HU. if checked to, bet; if bet into i would be inclined to call down with top pair against an unknown. if i showed alot of strength pf and on the flop and a bet comes my way on the turn UI, i could think about folding. i will say this, if his bets never meet resistance, he could be playing KQ or a decent pp this way. put some pressure on him at the flop. it makes the hand easier to play IMO(for those who can fold here).

thejameser

11-17-2005, 11:18 AM

shorthanded i don't hate a pf raise. it is not standard, but i can see doing it if people behind me can fold.

krimson

11-17-2005, 11:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
shorthanded i don't hate a pf raise. it is not standard, but i can see doing it if people behind me can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
The OP said the players yet to act are loose passive, so they're not folding. Hands like A8 will cold-call behind us and we have no clue where we stand. By raising we probably eliminate just enough players that we're not giving ourselves good odds for nut-flush value of our suited ace.

Would you raise A5s from MP2 in a full ring game when there are a bunch of loose passive's behind you?

krimson

11-17-2005, 11:49 AM

Here is an example starting hand chart for 6m games:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=3962211

I think the people that advocate raising this pre-flop are making a bigger mistake then they realize, especially given the l/p table conditions.

flair1239

11-17-2005, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with Nick here - why don't you like just raising the flop, flair?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is pretty big. I am not sure it is a value raise yet, and I really think the hands we want to see gone, will still call. Coupled with the fact BB may have us dicked.

I like a turn raise, because even LPPs may dump their 4-5 outers... where I am pretty sure they would not on the flop.

We have a chance on the turn to knock out maybe 5-7 collective field outs.

Plus a flop raise makes the pot so big, that probably four people will hit the river and see showdown.

Redd

11-17-2005, 01:17 PM

But if we are ahead, Villain may not even bet again on the turn. Especially since if we call things are shaping up to be a pretty multiway pot.

flair1239

11-17-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But if we are ahead, Villain may not even bet again on the turn. Especially since if we call things are shaping up to be a pretty multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With his read of a loose passive field, it is shaping up that way anyways.

EDIt: I feel a turn raise gives us more bang for the buck in both value and hand protection the times we ae ahead. The times BB has us beat, the raise may freeze him and we have a shot to hit our 3-outer.

The only thing I am not liking, is the prospect of folding to a BB 3-bet in what will then be a large pot.

Redd

11-17-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But if we are ahead, Villain may not even bet again on the turn. Especially since if we call things are shaping up to be a pretty multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With his read of a loose passive field, it is shaping up that way anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

True - then doesn't increase the chance that BB may check a losing hand on the turn?