$22 - Yes, I'm trying to steal your blind.

[wiggs73]

Here's a situation that comes up pretty frequently. I have a hand and a stack such that if blinds were one or two levels higher, I'd definitely push from the SB. With blinds at 50-100, is it worth it for me now to push now though? ICM would probably help a lot with this if someone wouldn't mind running it through for me.

Edit: These stacks are before posting.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

CO (t269)
Button (t691)
Hero (t1033)
BB (t1193)
UTG (t1724)
MP1 (t1415)
MP2 (t1675)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>

[tigerite]

Yes, this is usually a push, I'd say.

[Freudian]

This is a push or a fold for me, depending on the other player. At the $22s I'd guess I would fold this 50% and push 50%.

[wiggs73]

Yes, I wasn't considering making a raise smaller than a push.

[ace_in_the_hole]

Given the barely above 10bb chipstack I might complete in this spot and see a flop. How horrible is that play?

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the barely above 10bb chipstack I might complete in this spot and see a flop. How horrible is that play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. I actually don't know why I didn't think to do this during the hand.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the barely above 10bb chipstack I might complete in this spot and see a flop. How horrible is that play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's me in the BB, pretty horrible. I'm shoving 72o if you do that.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given the barely above 10bb chipstack I might complete in this spot and see a flop. How horrible is that play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's me in the BB, pretty horrible. I'm shoving 72o if you do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but most people aren't 2+2ers though (and at the $22s don't know how to play SNGs in general). I'll often do this anyway around this juncture in an SNG just to see how the BB responds.

[microbet]

I push against almost anyone here.

[wiggs73]

I did shove this and he called with K6s. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Had me second guessing my line, but I think it's still correct or at least there's nothing wrong with it.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I did shove this and he called with K6s. I'm pretty sure this was the first hand I had pushed in this SNG. You see some amazing calls sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

If K6s was the very very wost hand he'd call with, it is $EV neutral.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
If K6s was the very very wost hand he'd call with, it is $EV neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a feeling it was, or at least extremely close to it. He did think for quite a while before making the call.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is usually a push, I'd say.

[/ QUOTE ]

[johnnybeef]

yeah, this is a push. but i think that the hand becomes soooo much more interesting if your stack is ~1300.

[tewall]

Did you see Lee Jones' thing on pushing? It has a calculation that's easy enough to do in your head. I extrapolated it a bit, so it could applied to more than just 7xBB, which is all he covered, to come up with this formula: 19 + Effective Stack/BB = Power number. In your case, 19 + 10 = 29.

To calculate your Power number, take 2 times the value for higher card, add the smaller, and add 2 for being suited, to get 13 + 13 + 2 + 2 = 30. So it's just barely a push.

On the call side, you take 23 + Effective stack/BB to get 33. His hand is 13 + 13 + 6 + 2 = 34. So it's just barely a call.

You can get more information on this by looking at the thread that talks about his push strategy (he did it with someone else whose name I don't recall). Looking at the pattern of his numbers, I came up with push if your power number &gt;= 19 + Stack/BB and call if &gt;= 23 + Stack/BB. You can't make a mistake by pushing, as it doesn't matter what your opponent will call with. However, the best calling strategy is assuming your opponent is playing the best pushing strategy, which of course few will be.

If you look at the Two + Two Internet Magazine article this mongth on pushing in the blinds, you can sum up pushing on the BB like this:
a)Any pair
b)Any two with both 7 or higher
c)Any two 5 or higher, if both suited
d)Any Ace or King
e)Any Ace, King, Queen or Jace, if suited.

This doesn't match the chart exactly, but it's close. This strategy is more aggressive then Jones'. For example, using Jones' rule, 56 suited = 6 + 6 + 5 + 2 = 19, which is far less than the 29 needed, but the chart in the article shows this hand should be pushed.

I like the Jones method because it's easy enough to calculate in a few seconds, so you can use it while actually playing. I'm plaing around with trying to come up with a generalized formula for other positions, like on the button or before, something like add 4 for each position. So if Stack/BB = 10, and you're one off the button, you push with 19 + 10 + 4 + 4 = 37, which is hands like KJo, K9s, and A7o.

It seems to me using the Jones formula, you can be a bit more aggressive than it suggests when pushing, but should be more conservative when defending, unless you know your opponent will push at close to or higher than the optimal frequency.

[tewall]

It's not a bad idea, but I see some pitfalls. You're right on the cusp as to when you should start shoving. You can afford to be conservative if you want. But K2 suited is a nice hand to get all-in with, as it will be difficult to play after the flop. It's a high card with worst possible kicker, and a drawing hand which would like to see all cards, both of which argue for getting all-in.

[The Don]

I hope everyone realizes that the '10BB rule' is fairly arbitrary.

[liucipher]

Because I suck, I like systems.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[ QUOTE ]
On the call side, you take 23 + Effective stack/BB to get 33. His hand is 13 + 13 + 6 + 2 = 34. So it's just barely a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I suck, I like systems.
Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't really read the system, but any system that has the BB considering a call here is a lousy system.

[tewall]

The call is correct if the pusher is playing optimally, which few players do. Players tend to push too little in these situations, so calling would probably be a poor choice without knowledge of the opponent. If the player has pushed several times already, however, you have evidence that he pushes more than optimal, then calling is +EV.

In a heads up match with stacks = 10 BB optimal strategy is pushing with top 70% and calling with top 40%, according to some previous threads on this subject, I can't remember the poster. He did extensive simulated matches, and determined the best ratios that way. He said it didn't matter if you varied from optiaml play very much, however, unless you were quite a bit too timid or too aggressive.

According to pokerstove, K6s is in top 24%.