abuse limper?

[schwza]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 (t3390)
MP2 (t10459)
MP3 (t4808)
CO (t7815)
Button (t11150)
Hero (t2914)
BB (t2050)
UTG (t6268)
UTG+1 (t1604)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

utg+1 limps, fold to me.

there is no SB. villain has been here for 4-5 hands and has not played a hand. push or fold?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
push or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with completing the blind? I certainly wouldn't fold 98s.

[billyjex]

I'm confused. So are you the button and in position? I might take a flop if so.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused. So are you the button and in position? I might take a flop if so.

[/ QUOTE ]

my bad - converter is messed up. there is no SB, i am BB. villain is in fact utg+2.

[Aloysius]

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I'm confused. So are you the button and in position? I might take a flop if so.

[/ QUOTE ]

my bad - converter is messed up. there is no SB, i am BB. villain is in fact utg+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did UTG+2 raise? Why would you fold your BB? I'd check and take a flop with this hand, easy to play OOP.

[woodguy]

Limper only has 8BB's so may be going for the LRR.

Had he limped a lot before?

I like tapping here and taking a flop, thinking I have to *probably* beat on overpair, and your hand can flop a lot of draws.

If I flop a draw I put him all in since if he's not slow playing a big pair, I may get him to fold a hand I'm behind, if he has a big pair he's coming either way.

If I flop a pair and a flush draw, or better, I'm checking then getting him all in.

Regards,
Woodguy

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I like tapping here and taking a flop, thinking I have to *probably* beat on overpair

[/ QUOTE ]

villain has been here 4-5 hands and not played yet. this is all i know about him.

what do you think are the odds he has 99+? i think way below 50%.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
push or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with completing the blind? I certainly wouldn't fold 98s.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, i suck. that should be push or check . it's one limper to me and i can push or check. blech.

[woodguy]

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what do you think are the odds he has 99+? i think way below 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You putting him on all pairs 22-AA, plus some weak A's and suited connectors?

Regards,
Woodguy

[schwza]

yeah, plus some miscellaneous KJ-type hands. the whole world doesn't read 2p2 and know the 10x rule.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]

what do you think are the odds he has 99+? i think way below 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

definiely way less than 50%. his range is pretty wide, including all pairs as Woodguy said, so even if it was only pairs, it's below 50% that he's 99+.

[betgo]

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yeah, plus some miscellaneous KJ-type hands. the whole world doesn't read 2p2 and know the 10x rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about AA or KK?

I check without a second thought. I don't really understand pushing here.

[Yuv]

Check and play poker.

[betgo]

He limped for 1/8 of his stack in early position with no SB and no ante. To me that indicates a fairly strong hand. He thinks he has a better hand than the BB, but he doesn't want to raise and pot commit himself for 8 x pot. He could also be trapping with AA-QQ or even AK or JJ. If he is a loose passive player, he could have any standard limping hand.

An early position limp for 1/8 of stack looks strong. A push at limpers from the BB looks weak. Villain is getting 1.45-1 pot odds. He is probably going to call. Just because he may have limped with the intention of folding in some circumstances doesn't mean he will fold to a BB push. You are behind almost any hand he limped with.

Maybe the flop will connect with your suited connector or you can steal the pot later in the hand.

Some people go way too far with the punishing the limpers business. It is generally a bad idea to push with a stealing hand at an early position limper.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, plus some miscellaneous KJ-type hands. the whole world doesn't read 2p2 and know the 10x rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you don't have to read here to know how to play either.

I still like taking a flop on the cheap.

If I miss completely or hit a pair and no draw I lead out for 1/2 the pot, shutdown if called or raised.

Regards,
Woodguy

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, plus some miscellaneous KJ-type hands. the whole world doesn't read 2p2 and know the 10x rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how the 10x rule applies here. Villain has 8xpot, effectively the same as 12xBB with a SB. I don't see how pushing here would be a good play for him. Seems like if he wants to play, he has to limp or miniraise. I don't see the view that late tournament limpers are necessarily fish.

[Sam T.]

I'm unwilling to read this as a big hand, but I also don't think that pushing is a good idea, because I have to think your FE is minimal. Maybe it doesn't happen at the $100s, but among the $20 and under crowd, it is extremely common for shorty to look at the push and say, "Whoops, I guess I'm tied to the pot." and call with his KTo.

In any case, I'll have a look at a flop, and push if I like it even a little bit.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm unwilling to read this as a big hand, but I also don't think that pushing is a good idea, because I have to think your FE is minimal. Maybe it doesn't happen at the $100s, but among the $20 and under crowd, it is extremely common for shorty to look at the push and say, "Whoops, I guess I'm tied to the pot." and call with his KTo.

In any case, I'll have a look at a flop, and push if I like it even a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i don't like that plan. pushing for 7x into a 2x pot is way less appealing pre-flop than post. if i was going to bluff the flop, i'd make a normal 2/3-3/4 pot bet.

[schwza]

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[ QUOTE ]
yeah, plus some miscellaneous KJ-type hands. the whole world doesn't read 2p2 and know the 10x rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how the 10x rule applies here. Villain has 8xpot, effectively the same as 12xBB with a SB. I don't see how pushing here would be a good play for him. Seems like if he wants to play, he has to limp or miniraise. I don't see the view that late tournament limpers are necessarily fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a good point. i did not consider that.

i pushed and got shown AA. i convinced myself it was a bad after the fact and wanted to make sure i wasn't being too results oriented. thanks all.

Considering this is a speculative hand, I'd just be thrilled to be seeing the flop for free. Check please. Generally, my experience with limpers is that they have a monster about 35-40% of the time (I play $10SNGs and lower). Enough to make me want to check it without holding a monster myself.

-Gross

[Sam T.]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm unwilling to read this as a big hand, but I also don't think that pushing is a good idea, because I have to think your FE is minimal. Maybe it doesn't happen at the $100s, but among the $20 and under crowd, it is extremely common for shorty to look at the push and say, "Whoops, I guess I'm tied to the pot." and call with his KTo.

In any case, I'll have a look at a flop, and push if I like it even a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i don't like that plan. pushing for 7x into a 2x pot is way less appealing pre-flop than post. if i was going to bluff the flop, i'd make a normal 2/3-3/4 pot bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you hit a pair or draw, or both. You're going to bet t300 into a t500 pot, making the total 800. Villain pushes for 1400 more, so you will have to call 1100 in a pot that is now worth 2200 - 2:1. Obviously your decision to call depends on what kind of draw you have, but I think that many times you will find a way to do so. Take the FE and push.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm unwilling to read this as a big hand, but I also don't think that pushing is a good idea, because I have to think your FE is minimal. Maybe it doesn't happen at the $100s, but among the $20 and under crowd, it is extremely common for shorty to look at the push and say, "Whoops, I guess I'm tied to the pot." and call with his KTo.

In any case, I'll have a look at a flop, and push if I like it even a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i don't like that plan. pushing for 7x into a 2x pot is way less appealing pre-flop than post. if i was going to bluff the flop, i'd make a normal 2/3-3/4 pot bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you hit a pair or draw, or both. You're going to bet t300 into a t500 pot, making the total 800. Villain pushes for 1400 more, so you will have to call 1100 in a pot that is now worth 2200 - 2:1. Obviously your decision to call depends on what kind of draw you have, but I think that many times you will find a way to do so. Take the FE and push.

[/ QUOTE ]

post a hypothetical where you flop 842 or JT4 or whatever and see if anybody tells you to push. i think you should be c/r'ing a-i with a lot of draws, but it's hard to say w/o specifics. but i'd have a very hard time finding a flop where you want to open push 3.5x pot.