Watching this years WSOP the final straw.

[IHateCats]

I've been a cash game specialist since I started playing holdem but the donkfest that was this year's WSOP was more than enough to persuade me that the fields are now bad enough to justify the high entry fees.

The 2003 WSOP final table:
Grey, Harrington, Farha, Lester, Singer & Vahedi are all formidible in their own respective ways.

2004 WSOP final table:
Arieh, David Williams, Raymer, Krux all decent to very good.

2005 WSOP final table:
Other than Matusow, Hachem and Barch, jesus what a donkfest. I think with an average stack at this final table you'd have to have give Moneymaker better than average odds of winning much less Raymer. Hachem played well as did Barch & Matusow but other than that it was downright ugly.

Do any of the other MHNL regulars play tournaments with regularlity or is the siren lure of the cash games steady income too much?

[captZEEbo1]

tournys are a joke...too much luck, but juicy as hell.

Yeah everyone there played like crap...I remember some hand where KJo open limped from CO or so? I didn't think anyone that'd make final table woudl still open limp a hand like KJo

[HoldEmKillah]

Who open limps at ALL at a final table? wtf?

[Felix_Nietsche]

but the donkfest that was this year's WSOP was more than enough to persuade me that the fields are now bad enough to justify the high entry fees.
**************************************************
Exactly..........Aaron Kantor had 7 gold horseshoes up his ass. His maniac semi-bluff style became very predictable. Only luck allowed him to finish as high as he did.

I felt sorry for Black. He played well and yet his monster stack got donked away. Barch played well and Hachem played well. I wasn't that impressed w/ the runner-up. The annoucers said he was the 5th best in his home game. My reaction was, "That High!".

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
Who open limps at ALL at a final table? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]there's probably a case for open limping certains hands in certain spots, not like that though

[ QUOTE ]
Only luck allowed him to finish as high as he did.

[/ QUOTE ]Really? You think? I thought it was 100% skill to make it to final table /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Rounders said why does same people make final table each year

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of the other MHNL regulars play tournaments with regularlity or is the siren lure of the cash games steady income too much?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play a mix of both. I'm at 5/10 6-max at the moment and try and play in the Party Super Weekdays whenever I can. I have had a good deal of success in tournaments and without a couple big cashes, I'm not so sure I'm still playing poker. I'm moving out of the parents house in January(thank God), and will likely start playing the big stars and party tournaments whenever I get the chance. Its tough spending time and not earning any money(lost AKs to AQo which would have given me 3X average stack with 180 left in super last week, instead I wasted 3.5 hours and got sucked out on for a whopping $0), but the big payouts are well worth it(I've taken 3rd/1st in supers for 11.6k/32.7k). I also think it helps keep things exciting by switching around games a bit. Otherwise, I feel like a robot.

-Ace

Goals...

My goal since I started playing live poker was to supplement my income with a few extra bucks. Easily accomplished in 9-18 limit and $300 buy in N.L.

However, as my career progresses... What I'm really looking for now is the big pay-day.

I switched to tournies about a month ago and have had some success. Several small cashes and one 1st for $5,000 ($5 buy-in).

I think game selection all has to do with bankroll and goals you want to obtain.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? You think? I thought it was 100% skill to make it to final table Rounders said why does same people make final table each year

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell from from your tone whether you are joking but... Yes, even in a deep stacked, slow escalating blinds tournament like the WSOP there is a sick amount of luck involved.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Who open limps at ALL at a final table? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was just talking about this with a friend a few minutes ago. They showed at least 3 hands that I remember where someone open limped in LP at the final table. I am sure if you dig up the hand-by-hand logs on Cardplayer.com this happened way more often than it should have.

[HoldEmKillah]

When the blinds go up in a tourny, I'm raising or folding, period. The only reason I'll limp is if it's a really strange thing to do and it may throw my opponents off. Scratch that, I never do it.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been a cash game specialist since I started playing holdem but the donkfest that was this year's WSOP was more than enough to persuade me that the fields are now bad enough to justify the high entry fees.


[/ QUOTE ]

The players are certainly bad but with a field of 5600+ it's pretty much a lottery.

[Chaostracize]

Wow, after 3,000 posts you'd think your sarcasm meter would be even slightly tuned in, but it seems like you threw yours out the window.

[IHateCats]

Obviously I'm aware of this but the cash games that week must be wild as well so a few weeks are highly unlikley to be a total waste of time, especially since most tourney players can't play a 200x+ BB stack to save their lives. The overall level of play however seems to dropping faster than the learning curve of the average player is rising, particularly for the ME.

[Neurotoxin]

Black would have won the whole thing if he hadn't blown that set of 5s vs Kanter. He was so petrified of a draw that he just basically moved all in and did all he could to keep Kanter from calling. Loser poker.


[ QUOTE ]
I felt sorry for Black. He played well and yet his monster stack got donked away. Barch played well and Hachem played well. I wasn't that impressed w/ the runner-up. The annoucers said he was the 5th best in his home game. My reaction was, "That High!".

[/ QUOTE ]

[IHateCats]

[ QUOTE ]
Black would have won the whole thing if he hadn't blown that set of 5s vs Kanter. He was so petrified of a draw that he just basically moved all in and did all he could to keep Kanter from calling. Loser poker.



[ QUOTE ]
I felt sorry for Black. He played well and yet his monster stack got donked away. Barch played well and Hachem played well. I wasn't that impressed w/ the runner-up. The annoucers said he was the 5th best in his home game. My reaction was, "That High!".

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


What he said.

Getting at the final table is the problem.

[cero_z]

Hi IHC,

I guess you're serious. I thought you were going to talk about the play in general, leading up to the final table. Your final table assessments range from hasty to dead wrong, IMO. I have played against Barch, and he is very, very tough. Matusow is obviously skilled though emotionally fragile. Black appeared to play extremely well to me, with the exception of the set of 5s hand you mentioned. I address this below. Hachem seemed to play reasonably well, though too conservative to win without winning every big pot he played, often as a coinflip or as a dog, which was the case at least as far as the televised hands were concerned. Does anyone like his HU call in the BB with 73o against a player like Dannenman? Not me, and I'm one of the loosest out there.

[ QUOTE ]
Black would have won the whole thing if he hadn't blown that set of 5s vs Kanter. He was so petrified of a draw that he just basically moved all in and did all he could to keep Kanter from calling. Loser poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was my response at first, too, but then I tried to think of why an otherwise very solid player would do such a thing. I suspect that he had been running over the game to accumulate and expand his chip lead when this hand came up, and was playing it fast, expecting someone to take a stand against him with a medium-strong or better hand. The youngster with a penchant for gambling seems like a good target for that move to me. Notice that Black also played his JJ very fast in a spot where it surely figured to be good, and got paid.

I don't know that the above scenario is accurate, but you don't know that it isn't. I believe that viewed through this lens, Black's play with 555 was a small mistake, though still probably wrong (these opportunities are so rare and big that you can't waste them). You must realize that we only see a tiny fraction of the hands played when we watch the WSOP on TV.

And finally,

[ QUOTE ]
David Williams...decent to very good.


[/ QUOTE ]

This must be a joke.

[James282]

Just thought I'd contribute and say that I played a decent amount with Andy when he was in AC for the Borgata WPT and I believe he could hold his own with most twoplustwoers - this is both tournament and cash games. I also watched him play at the final table with our ActionBob in the tournament that Rob won and thought he played very tough then as well. Just my 2c.
-James

[IHateCats]

Firstly, I didn't say a single thing negative about Barch, his play seemed solid and very consistently good which considering the stakes is no mean feat, I'm not sure where you got the impression I said anything negative about him from. 2ndly of course my opinion is affected by the broadcast because that's the only way we see the hole cards but I've read the hand by hand posting numerous times as well, give me some credit. And yes Black had been agressive but on that dry of a board I still think putting someone else virtually all in, especially someone who was prone to vastly overplay his hand when allowed to be the aggressesor then chatting up a storm and generally looking pleased as punch is foolish. Say what you will about Moneymaker, at least he had brains enough to keep his mouth shut and not give off obvious tells.

Yes I though Hachem was somewhat conservative but with Kanter and Danneman behind him raising into him and a short stack I'm not sure he had much choice since those two seem like the most likely to give him the least fold equity with his relatively short stack.

And results aside, I HATE calling 73o there too.

Lastly, I was including David Williams in a GROUP that I rated as running from decent to very good, not saying David Williams in 2004 was at the better end of that group, I think Raymer and Arieh were clearly the class of the 2004 final table along with Harrington.

Finally, let me put it to you this way, if you had to pick one final table to compete against, which would it be, 2003, 2004, 2005?

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
Arieh, David Williams, Raymer, Krux all decent to very good.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol as if you had any idea who these guys were at the time it aired. The reason you like them and think they're good now is because of how many times it aired. I thought andrew black, tex barch, joseph hachem, matusow were all good... which is about the same # as last year. Difference is you havent seen the reruns enough for them to not feel like "unknowns" anymore.

[durrrr]

limping on the button... Should it have its own thread? MTT forum any good?


^^^ I think ther are some spots where limping late in tournies is advantageous.

[HoldEmKillah]

I think today all MHNL posters should enter the $100 rebuy on stars and take it by storm.

First of all, let me say that the WSOP is never, and never will be a donkfest. More and more as tournaments grow larger, so due the variables and the number of situations to knock out a pro, or "non-donk". How can you possibly call the WSOP a donkfest when the amount of hands you saw on T.V. were less than 1/100 of 1% of all hands played at the WSOP this year? Sure, this year there were more rookies and newbies than ever before, but there were also more quality players than ever before. Let me give you an example. I've played in cash games with Derek "tex" Barch on a handful of occasions. He's an excellent PL Hold'em player. But despite all of this, I can guarantee you that there are hands they could have shown him play in the WSOP that did not air that would make you say he was a lucky "donkey", when, clearly in my opinion and in the opinion of all those who know their ass from a deck of cards, he's stone cold at the table. You didn't mention Andrew Black as one of the "good" players at the table this year....Why? Because he pushed allin with KJo???

The hands that you see someone play on T.V. is rarely a reflection of how they play the majority of their hands.

And it's ironic to me that you mentioned Williams as one of the "good" players in last years main event final table. David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.


The OP made me very frustrated with his seemingly arrogant approach to the WSOP and the lure of the donkeys.


The WSOP will never, and has never, been a donkfest, and what you see on ESPN is a very very microscopic sample of hands played that are geared towards getting an audience.


WAKE UP.




Tex

[AJo Go All In]

from what i understand you are just wrong. the 2005 wsop was arguably the biggest "donkfest" in the history of poker.

[Yeti]

BTW, congrats dude.

[ QUOTE ]
David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.



[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. A lot of people forget he was on his way out in 17th place, and off into obscurity forever (outside the Magic circles).

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
the 2005 wsop was arguably the biggest "donkfest" in the history of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. and wpt foxwoods might not be too far behind.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.



[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. A lot of people forget he was on his way out in 17th place, and off into obscurity forever (outside the Magic circles).

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But you are the epitome of a watch 10 hands and render a final judgment on someone's play donk.
-James

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the 2005 wsop was arguably the biggest "donkfest" in the history of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. and wpt foxwoods might not be too far behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

that KJ v. JJ hand was brutal

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

he won a limit tournament at the bellagio and got second in Borgata (i think, someone correct me here). He can't be that bad.

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think anyone that'd make final table woudl still open limp a hand like KJo

[/ QUOTE ]

**sigh** your post reeks of a cashgame player who knows very little but still likes to assume things about MTTs. There are many good reasons to limp with a hand like KJo, especially in CO. This is a play a lot of good tournament players would make on ocassion if the situation is right.

[IHateCats]

For God's sakes, can't you read?

I specifically included Barch in the group that played well and wasn't included in the donkey group. So why are you going off on how solid he is?

And yes, I thought Black's KJo push was foolish as was Hachem's calling Danneman preflop with 73o HU, results aside.

Really, they only broadcast only part of the hands? You've got to be kidding me. <SARCASM indicator since your reading comprehension is clearly low> And yes I've read the hand by hand descriptions but without hole cards, those are limited as well. That is where the broadcast adds SOME value. That and obvious physical tells like Black was radiating with his set of 5's. And it certainly confirms how poorly Danneman and Kanter played.

I included David Williams in a GROUP that I rated as running from decent to very good, I didn't say David Williams in 2004 was at the better end of that group, I think Raymer and Arieh were clearly the class of the 2004 final table along with Harrington.

If you think this table was such a powerhouse, tell me, which would you rather play at the 2005 top 20 or the 2003 top 20 or the final tables of each? The point is that the experience and skill of the fields of the ultra high profile touraments, WSOP NLHE and WPT Foxwoods & probably Commerce is dropping more than rapidly enough to offset the high entry fees.

[Roman]

I usually use this move before a final table because the players at a final table are generally stronger, but it is not at all uncommon as you may think even on a FT. Maybe this is not common amongst 2+2ers, but there are undeniable advantages of openlimping on certain tables/vs certain opponents.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually use this move before a final table because the players at a final table are generally stronger, but it is not at all uncommon as you may think even on a FT. Maybe this is not common amongst 2+2ers, but there are undeniable advantages of openlimping on certain tables/vs certain opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what are those advantages. Time to defend that position. Im here for learning.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.



[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. A lot of people forget he was on his way out in 17th place, and off into obscurity forever (outside the Magic circles).

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But you are the epitome of a watch 10 hands and render a final judgment on someone's play donk.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes it even more clear that he sucks. His HU play against Negreanu was the worst I've ever seen. It only took about 30 televised hands for me to understand just how donkish he can be.

I'm not saying he doesn't pull of good plays. But he can be ridiculously donkish at times, which makes him a bad poker player.

Plus I've logged over 3k* hands with him in NL cash games, live.


* By 3K, of course I am referring to zero.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.



[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. A lot of people forget he was on his way out in 17th place, and off into obscurity forever (outside the Magic circles).

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But you are the epitome of a watch 10 hands and render a final judgment on someone's play donk.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes it even more clear that he sucks. His HU play against Negreanu was the worst I've ever seen. It only took about 30 televised hands for me to understand just how donkish he can be.

I'm not saying he doesn't pull of good plays. But he can be ridiculously donkish at times, which makes him a bad poker player.

Plus I've logged over 3k* hands with him in NL cash games, live.


* By 3K, of course I am referring to zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, but making bad plays from time to time doesn't make you a bad player.
-James

[turnipmonster]

22 against a chronic reraiser?

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]

22 against a chronic reraiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to open limp on the button with hands like KQs/AJo/QJs/small pairs and the like against chronic re-raisers (which everyone seems to be when you are at the last few tables and make a button raise)

Basically I'm avoiding bloating the pot too much PF, as I will call his raise, but the pot will be more like 8-10BB's + antes instead of 18-10BB's, and if we are only 30-50BB's deep by that time, it makes all the difference in the world in allowing me to use position for the rest of the hand.

If I raise it up PF he either blows me off my hand or I'm going to the felt with a hand that doesn't warrant it, those stack sizes can make PF raises tough with hands you really want to play (especially with position) but can't take any real heat, and need at least 2 streets of betting to play well

That's my take. I play a lot of tourneys, but generally am not as good as most here at deep stack NLHE.

Regards,
Woodguy

[psuasskicker]

Donkfest, maybe...

I'll just say this. Anyone that thinks they can play 5-6 days straight for 16+ hours per day and then sit down and play another 24 - 30 hour session with millions of dollars at stake in front of millions of TV viewers, and not make a few mistakes along the way, has got one helluvan ego. Not that that's a bad thing, just sayin' it's not easy to do that and not make a few mistakes in that last session.

- C -

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David is not a bad player, but some of the things he did were atrocious, and, had he not caught club-club on Mike McClaine, you wouldnt even know his name.



[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. A lot of people forget he was on his way out in 17th place, and off into obscurity forever (outside the Magic circles).

I think Williams is horrible. Way too over-aggressive. The epitome of an internet tourney donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But you are the epitome of a watch 10 hands and render a final judgment on someone's play donk.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes it even more clear that he sucks. His HU play against Negreanu was the worst I've ever seen. It only took about 30 televised hands for me to understand just how donkish he can be.

I'm not saying he doesn't pull of good plays. But he can be ridiculously donkish at times, which makes him a bad poker player.

Plus I've logged over 3k* hands with him in NL cash games, live.


* By 3K, of course I am referring to zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, but making bad plays from time to time doesn't make you a bad player.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, so 85% of the time he's totally average. 15% of the time he's the worlds sickest donk.

You win.

[Jason Strasser]

Quiet, you fish.

Seriously, I do think it is a fairly interesting option that I never really do in a tourney with like 20-40bb. Any deeper I've been doing a little more common when there are v weak players in the blinds, or overaggressive ones who I may limp reraise from the button.

Your limp w/ AK though that one tournament I still don't like. Al busted a player who open limped on the button with J2s, maybe he'll talk about that hand because it was kinda weird.

-Jason

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

22 against a chronic reraiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to open limp on the button with hands like KQs/AJo/QJs/small pairs and the like against chronic re-raisers (which everyone seems to be when you are at the last few tables and make a button raise)

Basically I'm avoiding bloating the pot too much PF, as I will call his raise, but the pot will be more like 8-10BB's + antes instead of 18-10BB's, and if we are only 30-50BB's deep by that time, it makes all the difference in the world in allowing me to use position for the rest of the hand.

If I raise it up PF he either blows me off my hand or I'm going to the felt with a hand that doesn't warrant it, those stack sizes can make PF raises tough with hands you really want to play (especially with position) but can't take any real heat, and need at least 2 streets of betting to play well

That's my take. I play a lot of tourneys, but generally am not as good as most here at deep stack NLHE.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem with this imo is if someone is perceptive they can take you off your limp anyway, and limp/calling on the button vs a random hand, where you need to hit your hand and he doesnt need to hit his reverses your position, if you know what I mean.

imo those hands mentioned are generally profitable due to their steal equity. Taking the blinds is just fine, if you raise, you'd rather not get a caller.

Plus open limping creates too many situations where they can make postflop +EV decisions, whereas winning the pot in the pf stage eliminates this.

Also, if they're blowing you out pf by reraising too much, it's not that hard to limit your stealing and increasing your push frequency? Well, it's not easy, either, but more profitable then open limping imo.

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

22 against a chronic reraiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to open limp on the button with hands like KQs/AJo/QJs/small pairs and the like against chronic re-raisers (which everyone seems to be when you are at the last few tables and make a button raise)

Basically I'm avoiding bloating the pot too much PF, as I will call his raise, but the pot will be more like 8-10BB's + antes instead of 18-10BB's, and if we are only 30-50BB's deep by that time, it makes all the difference in the world in allowing me to use position for the rest of the hand.

If I raise it up PF he either blows me off my hand or I'm going to the felt with a hand that doesn't warrant it, those stack sizes can make PF raises tough with hands you really want to play (especially with position) but can't take any real heat, and need at least 2 streets of betting to play well

That's my take. I play a lot of tourneys, but generally am not as good as most here at deep stack NLHE.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem with this imo is if someone is perceptive they can take you off your limp anyway, and limp/calling on the button vs a random hand, where you need to hit your hand and he doesnt need to hit his reverses your position, if you know what I mean.

imo those hands mentioned are generally profitable due to their steal equity. Taking the blinds is just fine, if you raise, you'd rather not get a caller.

Plus open limping creates too many situations where they can make postflop +EV decisions, whereas winning the pot in the pf stage eliminates this.

Also, if they're blowing you out pf by reraising too much, it's not that hard to limit your stealing and increasing your push frequency? Well, it's not easy, either, but more profitable then open limping imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really want to go into my personal openlimp strategy, but limping should almost always only be done against big blind players who you can outplay easily postflop, I would not do it without reads.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really want to go into my personal openlimp strategy,

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
but limping should almost always only be done against big blind players who you can outplay easily postflop, I would not do it without reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine... This seems like a much more common live play then online, I guess.

[Marlow]

I listened to the complete Cardplayer broadcast during a busride from hell a few weeks ago. Actually, Aaron Canter was killing that table. Really running the show until he blew up. It's interesting to me that ESPN chooses not to show how the guy was pushing everyone around. He just kept coming over the top of everyone, and no-one had any defense. But then he self-destructed in two hands. Weird.

Also, Black seemed to be pretty damned good as well. If they play that table 9 times, I'm sure he makes the top 2 at least three times.

Honestly, I'm done with televised poker, unless it's hand-for-hand like it is on Fox or Live at the Bike. I could care less about the big hands out of context.

[Roman]

probably but I dont really play live much (yet). Predictable players are predictable even online.